Struggling academically with uni course (maths) - what should YP do?

[wrongtimewrongplace]

YP at a top ten uni in YR 2 undergrad studying maths. YP sailed through school, all A stars and As, always loved maths, but has struggled academically at uni. Scraped through first year with a condoned pass in one subject. Has just failed one of the first semester YR2 exams, so will have to resit that in the summer. In the first half of YR1, they probably socialised too much but has knuckled down since then and is working hard, but marks do not seem to be improving.

My thoughts ( not shared with YP) are that with hindsight, this course (maths) at this uni are probably not right for them, even though they expected to be able based on prior academic attainment. What options are open to them? If they resit and fail, they will not be able to progress to the next year. If they do progress, best case they would come out with a 2/2 or 3rd. Given the current competitive graduate job market, they will struggle to even be considered for lots of jobs ( they want 2/1 or more).

Has anyone else been through similar? What was the outcome for your YP? Do you have any advice?
I’m unsure how to best advise / support them. If they end up leaving at the end of this year, how would they explain it on their cv? How would this affect their future? I am very worried for YP.

My dds friend sounds similar (top A* pupil all through to 18) Dropped maths and changed to physics. Got a 1st.

Thanks for suggestions all. They have been told they cannot swap course, they would have to start again if they wanted to switch degree. They are not finding the tutors particularly helpful.

I think they will have to see this year out and then decide whether to continue ( if they pass their resit) and get a low grade degree or leave and start something else. It’s pretty frustrating as they did one module from the Management department and got a very high grade in that, so I can’t help but feel they are just on the wrong course for them. It was impossible for them to know this in advance and it seems that once you have started it’s v difficult to switch to a different course or uni.

@wrongtimewrongplace I just saw your update. What a pity they won't let them switch. Did they specifically request to switch to Management? I was just going to suggest they switch to "Mathematics, Statistics and Data Science" which is an applied course:

https://www.bath.ac.uk/courses/undergraduate-2026/mathematical-sciences/

It does say: "this degree emphasizes practical skills over mathematical proof" and "switches to or from MSD can be done at the end of year one if you obtain a sufficiently high mark", so it might have been perfect (even if the grades aren't very high; it may be easier to switch from Maths to MSD than vice versa).

@ParmaVioletTeaI think you are spot on, thanks

@SoftIceThank you , I will mention this course to them. I think they just asked about the general principle of switching rather than a specific course.

The units would have to match somewhat. I would ask what’s possible. They wouldn’t want drop outs if they can do something and he’s a good student otherwise.

I couldn’t swap from biology to biochemistry as not enough chemistry even though my marks were in the 90s for the two biochemistry units.

Put an ad up in the uni library for an older student to tutor him through it 1 to 1 (if it’s just 1 module he’s struggling with).

Think a little about who is telling them they cannot switch course. If its people within maths department then they might need to retain headcount or something. I would suggest the student approaches a lecturer they might know in the proposed switch to subject to. Sometimes a pull gets more interest than a push.

Some good posts here @wrongtimewrongplace esp from @ParmaVioletTea – I agree that the YP should contact their PT for a discussion.

Yes it may be that they are a 2:2 student in the end, and that’s OK IMO. I don’t have much knowledge of maths at uni but if the step up is massive and you can quickly feel like you know nothing compared to others on the course, that’s true for other subjects too (like MFL which I took).

Yes your YP needs to do super super well from here on in and really accept any advice. Maths at Bath is very much top tier. The smartest mathematicians will be on the course and the challenge is real. A 2:2 in maths from Bath is still a worthwhile outcome tho it may be hard to take if you have always been top of the class.

But I agree, it might be worth asking if they can transfer to another course that links with maths – perhaps restarting with year 2 if that is possible. They may have to show how they are prepared to make that work – perhaps by spending the rst of this year on the year 1 work? If they can do that they will still have enough funding. All the best to them whatever they do.

This was my eldest ds a few years ago. He started out doing a combined maths with finance degree. After 2nd year he switched to accounting with finance. He had to repeat a year to catch up with the accounting modules but it worked well for him. Hes
now training to be an accountant.

Or possibly transfer to another maths degree at a supportive uni?

Dd went to Warwick and it felt like the maths / economist students had the love of their subject drilled out of them!

All the best for your DC, OP. I did A level maths many years ago and loved the mechanics and statistics applied modules but really disliked the pure maths elements.

I was pondering your DC’s options (I worry about everybody’s students, it seems). There’s all the stuff your DC can do now, turning from student life to a scholar’s life, if you like - really focussing on trying to get their 2, ii mark as close to 60 as possible. 60% is the boundary into an upper Second.

They should look at the weighting of 3rd year. Most universities try to reflect the cumulative effect of learning in their degree classification schemes, and the general assumption that a student will know more by their Final year, so often 3rd year modules are weighted more heavily than 2nd year. It’s called “exit velocity.”

So it might be possible to pull up the overall mark by focused and appropriate hard work, with attention to taking up any opportunities offered for extra workshops etc. Also, does Bath have a student-run Maths Society? Your DC should join that and learn from peers about working smart as well as hard.

Then if you both can take the cost, look at Masters degrees which would utilise the maths expertise in applied ways. Many Masters programmes require a 2,i but there will be programmes that need students to keep going, and if your DC has optional/elective modules in an area such as Management, or Statistics or similar, they could use this to present themselves as a realistic candidate.

He won't be the first, nor the last. A level grades are not that good a predictor for University.

He needs to talk to his tutor or someone else in the department about possibly transferring to another subject.

What parts of maths does he enjoy or struggle with? If he likes stats he might look at economics or some form of data science. If it is mechanics he might look at things like physics. His maths to date should give him an advantage, as he will have covered the first year maths content.

He should also look at study skills. DS started to struggle in his second term as the stats course was going at a tremendous pace and had started to get confusing. His tutor took him out for coffee and recommended he spent two hours preparing in advance of a lecture to become familiar with the material, then listened hard in the lecture with four hours after to go over the material and work through problem sets etc until he had cemented his knowledge. Then thorough revision over Christmas and Easter. It worked.

Change to business

She can do this - Maths, Literature and Philosophy - at Warwick, under the banner of the Liberal Arts and Sciences degree https://warwick.ac.uk/study/undergraduate/courses/basc-liberal-arts-and-sciences/

This is a really common issue with maths degrees and has been for along long time. It was DH's experience many moons ago and he'd had an Oxford place for maths (he actually didn't meet the offer or Bath's so went to Leeds) . He was the classic person who was very good at arithmetic- Carol Vorderman level lightning quick at mental maths (she got a 3rd). He only did maths because his father made him, really , played lots of football, drank a lot. He hated maths at uni from the start and so things compounded themselves. He ended up with a 3rd. In those days you technically needed a 2:1 for teaching but he was accepted and has been fine (it wasn't his Plan A). But I do realise times have changed in graduate recruitment. Probably not so much in teaching...

He always says he should have done a different degree with less abstract maths in it.

@Skule you beauty! Just goes to show, you have to scour these websites. Dd will be cockahoop. Thank you very much 😊

Been there, done that, got the T-shirt!

I struggled through a course to the midway point, then failed (failed the summer resit too). I went straight into a different course and finished with a 1st class degree then went on and did a Masters too.

For me, it has had no negative impact. My degree is vocational and the fact I had a failed go at a different degree first has never tripped me up. I explained that I picked the wrong degree, realised I’d made a mistake, made a change, and now here I am. It’s a bit of a running joke because I flunked architecture and then chose to become an engineer instead. Engineers generally have opinions about architects so it’s something to laugh about, “you picked the right side”.

But even outside of vocational degrees, it’s far better to make a change and thrive than feel trapped, flunk it, and never live up to your potential. It’s hard to decide what degree is right when you’re a 18! It’s inevitable that people will pick the wrong thing!

There's also a joint degree in Maths and Philosophy https://warwick.ac.uk/study/undergraduate/courses/ba-bsc-mathematics-philosophy/

@wrongtimewrongplace Sorry, couldn’t quite tell but do they know why they are struggling? Is it that the feel like they’ve hit “the wall” or that this he haven’t put the effort in? “The wall” was the feeling at my uni (engineering dominated) that everyone found where the maths constantly felt like they had missed some crucial class and could no longer understand.

I just wonder if it’s worth really considering what to do if they are only get another two years of student finance?

My nephew hit the wall at the end of yr 1 maths. Got some post grad help but he knew it wasn't for him in the end and left university. Got a business apprenticeship in a bank. After a couple of years the bank put him through an OU degree. Then they supported him doing accountancy exams. All come good.

This is a really common issue with maths degrees and has been for along long time.
This seems to be true. I have known various Maths students who were whizzes but then - suddenly - hit a brick wall and couldn't get past it. Maths is fairly black&white: you either get it or you don't; you can't really waffle your way out of it.

If it isn't working and the department aren't helpful then bailing might be the best option. They are stuck there for the moment so they might as well do the best they can, with the incentive that good grades achieved in the remainder of Y2 will help with the escape plan. The escape plan can be:
switch within the same University
re-start with another Uni / subject
try for a degree apprenticeship
take some time out, get off the treadmill, have a re-think. There's no hurry.

There are many tales on MN of how employers are using University-blind recruitment techniques these days, so the classification gained is more important than the awarding Institution. It might be an idea to find a more nurturing University, rather than being swayed by course ranking.
Does YP have a career plan that might affect decision-making?

Thanks all for further helpful comments. I’ve spoken to DC further, trying to help them consider whether they have hit ‘the wall’ in terms of capability or whether smarter / increased working will make a difference. They think the latter ( not personally convinced on this but they have to drive this) so I have suggested speaking to tutor / seeking out other resources and really thinking about how they achieve this. I’m hoping they can do this and apply this approach for the rest of this year. If they do so and there is no improvement, then I think that will show them that they have reached the limits of their capability with maths and then make decisions about the future.

A couple more thoughts on study skills.

1. Use office hours. Few undergraduates do, but course lecturers normally don't mind. Indeed they are paid to run them and often appreciate student engagement. With a specific problem they may be able to offer further study material or explanation. A useful unexpected output for DS was that academics recognised him and were able to write more detailed references.
2. Find study mates, so you can work together through material. OP's DC may be sitting there assuming that everyone else is ailing through but this is unlikely to be the case. Being able to work together to solve problems is a useful real life skill. Success at University can often be down to hanging out with focussed hard working peers.