University in Europe

[Eumaybe]

Hello,

Anyone whose children went from UK secondary to university in France/Belgium/Luxembourg/Switzerland?

How did you do it basically.
Is a good level in French mandatory?

Thank you

@Eumaybe Not if it’s one that teaches in English. Not that many do.

My DD did two semesters abroad as part of her MFL degree. Geneva and Bologna universities. Taught in French. Bologna was chaotic at times. Be careful what you wish for. Many universities here are higher ranked than European ones. The grand Ecoles in France are top notch of course but some unis are private. No loans for fees either. Some fees are lower of course but I would look at quality.

My kids didn't go to Europe, but they were exploring it at one point. The reason why we decided against it were honestly the strict requirements, they have specific rules for Alevels etc you have to take to even be eligible to apply. My family decided against it, as it seemed a bit much.

My son studied for a masters in the Netherlands, taught in English as many are, huge range of international students

Worth looking at the prospectuss to see what's available, he did a European politics themed masters

In my industry it’s fairly common to come across people who’ve studied at the University of Delft (Netherlands), which teaches in English.

French unis have big dropout rates after the savage first year exams.

Language aside, the move from the English education system to the French education system is almost impossible (the reverse is not true). However, there are prestigious undergraduate university degree courses in English in Europe at Polytechnique, Centrale, Bocconi, IE, ESADE, the Netherlands etc.

Masters in the Netherlands is not unusual as they are cheap - or were!

I'd second this. The A level requirements would likely be the main obstacle. They've be laughed out of some unis if they've only done 3-4 subjects.

DC is considering this. Very early stages. But it may need to involve a kind of gap year in the county to work up to the requirements.

My kids went to a European International school with the IB and then to UK universities.

We have lots of friends and acquaintances that have gone to universities all over Europe. It is important to consider the fact that even if the course is taught in English, the working language around you will not be.

If you are at a large institution with lots of English speaking students and university accomodation, it can be fine. Also worth remembering that many many people go to other places to study and have a great time, but equally, this adventure is not for everyone.

I lived in Paris for 6 months aged 20, it was amazing but also had many very stressful moments. I had a number of adults around me who provided some support. Lots of students find their first year at university difficult. There are added complexity of living through a different language and a different culture. Yes.. still European .. but not English.. I grew up in Ireland and coming to England to university resulted in some things that I had to get my head around. I live in France now and even in my 50s find somethings challenging.

I think life for our adolescents is much more challenging than it was for us. I have been surprised at how many young people struggle at university, move during or after the first year, some with intense consequences, but these also happen to students in the UK.

In short.. don't unestimate the extra challenges associated with studying in another country and the extra support they might require.

Can I ask if there are financial benefits? I assume some countries still have free universities so you only pay for accomodation?

Yes. More kids I know went from the Irish system to European universities as the Leaving Cert makes for an easier application process than A levels. My nephew is seriously considering doing international law at Groningen.

It is a nonsense to say that A levels are lightweight. Undergrad degrees in Italy offer numerous resits for example. It’s not true everyone in Europe is somehow brighter and better. If that was the case these universities would be top 100 in the world. They aren’t. Some universities cited are not better than the uk RG ones.

A-levels aren't lightweight but the narrow range of subjects taken by nearly all A-level candidates means that they just aren't eligible for a lot of desirable university courses in European countries. I know of Westminster alumni who got onto extremely desirable European degrees (Bachelor Polytechnique, EPFL) but they had five A-levels at A*.

For Switzerland it depends what they want to study. Also they will need to demonstrate C1 level of the language taught - basically fluent - with a recognized language school eg Goethe with a minimim level of 70% pass for all areas of the language.
Switzerland has courses in English, and all the national languages so it very much depends what the DC wants to study. Even if 2nd/3rd year some parts of the course are taught in English if the first year is one of the national languages it will be tested.
Also accommodation is expensive and life generally.
They also have the Matura not A levels or IB as the standard qualification to enter university so you need to check that your DC has the accepted UK equivalent in all areas eg you need a language and I think 2 sciences (maybe 3) maths. It’s also a very different academic atmosphere. They work very hard. My friends son is at ETH studying Engineering. It’s not so social and fun as the Uk. They have to work hard and you will be told to leave if you don’t make good enough grades.

No one’s suggesting that. The A level system just involves specialising far too early in a way that doesn’t suit the higher education systems of other countries.

We're looking at European universities for our dc (they have British & EU passports). The main factor is financial - tuition fees are much lower for lots of courses in lots of countries meaning they we can cover them and hopefully dc will graduate with zero debt. If they study in the uk then £10,000 per year tution plus help with living costs will mean loans.

Dd is considering NL (lots of courses in English, we have family there), Spain (she loves the cities and they have excellent coaches for the sport she does) or Italy (this choice is mainly based on her love of ice cream)

Yes but the impression given is that somehow these qualifications are as in depth as A levels. I dispute that. Not everyone abroad is somehow more intelligent. It’s a broader system but not necessarily as challenging. Degrees can take much longer for example.

I prefer a wider range of study and dc here narrow down too early in GCSEs. Sometimes in y9. That’s the big problem. Often doing loads of sciences and no art and no MFLs. It’s get a pass at the expense of breadth. A levels are a product of this in many ways.

Many uk universities are in the world 100. Most students in them go with A levels. Most degrees specialise. So the A levels are not holding anyone back.

When DD was in Switzerland, I think the pass mark was 66% and yes, they were more demanding. DD with her A levels managed it though.

There is no generalization possible. A-levels in some subjects will be more demanding than the French/Italian/German/Dutch etc equivalent and a lot less demanding in others. A-level standards in sciences hold up reasonably well in comparison with standards in EU countries while MFL A-levels are a joke.

Luckily Cambridge and Oxford don’t think so @Ceramiq . You do keep banging on about MFLs with no evidence that they are not rigorous enough for our elite uni degrees, when they clearly are. Many dc here cannot even manage the GCSE. Cambridge has MFLs on their, rather short, list of subjects giving the best prep for non science degrees and I think I’ll accept their view over yours. Maybe check it out?

No one on this thread said that A Levels are lightweight.

Universities have entry requirements based on their own expectations. Also the courses are designed to follow on from second level education in that country, even if they allow for some.recap / catch up for students who have arrived from elsewhere.

I see some vast misconceptions and inconsistemcies in the comparison between various second level qualifications and what is expected regarding university admission.

University fees are cheaper in many EU countries for EU residents and in some cases for all residents, but the difference can be quickly eaten up in flights to and from that country, visits from parents to student, differences in costs of accomodation, food, ease of getting a part time job, health insurance.. other unexpected things..

I don't understand why university rankings are being used as a counterweight against A-levels being undesirable. Student quality has no causal effect on university rankings at all. Though the measurements of rankings vary, they tend to come down to research, staff-student ratios, and graduate outcomes. Graduate outcomes are the only factor that is relevant to student quality, but it's indirect.

So basically: UK universities are generally ranked very well internationally, but that doesn't mean that A-levels are a good idea.

In my case, it’s about the cost of UK education and the impact of AI. I don’t want my children to start their adult lives burdened with debt that may not even lead to a stable career. They’ll have to make their decisions in the next couple of years, yet we still don’t fully understand how AI will reshape the job market. It all feels a bit overwhelming.

IF your child has a European passport but doesn’t have a second fluent language then the Netherlands is your best bet. It’s where we would have encouraged our kids to go but for bloody Brexit. I envy anyone with an EU passport!!!