Brutal grad jobs market

[anotherglass]

Hello, my DS 22 graduated last July with an BEng from a Russell Group uni. Since then he has applied for around 60-70 jobs with no success. The whole process of online assessment, video interview and then rejection / ghosting is starting to grind him down. It is even tough to secure a part-time job in our area - such as a coffee shop or retailer - as he is considered over qualified and a risk, due to the fact he is searching for a full-time role.
I am finding myself worrying more and more about his mental health and future.
He is already less enthusastic about applying for jobs.

Any suggestions on what to do from here? Is it worth considering a Masters to try and ride out the horrendous job market?

Thank you

DS is finding it really tough. It’s very slow going

I can only imagine how tough it must be. Does he talk about it to you? What does he want to do?

Is it fair with AI now assisting both the recruiter and applicant? Unless a company has resources to check university qualifications or a policy of selection from more well regarded universities it is a free for all for graduate regardless of educational attainment . Is this fair?

Degree from the University of Teeside having entry with minimal A levels but using AI to spruce up a job application has as much chance as an application.from a degree holder from Oxford.

I have to say the fear job market and recruitment processes make me question whether it is worth bothering doing well at school.

Unfortunately a degree from Oxford does not guarantee that you have the desired attributes for a role. Recruiting grads is a blunt tool, enabling recruiter to do a first sift but a good degree is not enough, excellent A levels and GCSEs are not enough because the ability to pass an exam is not the same as the ability to do well in a role.
As a recruiter I don’t pay an attention to “fair” I want the best candidate for the job and the education they have should enable them to be literate and numerate but even with degrees from good universities that is often not the case - hence recruiters do their own tests. If the Oxford graduate is a higher quality candidate - they should be able to easily demonstrate that in the recruitment process -if they can’t they don’t then they don’t get the job. Nothing unfair about that!

@NextLevel2 Completely agree with this. Students (and their parents) do well to research the recruitment criteria of their preferred employers/sectors and to complete their skill set on their own if they want to have a chance of getting through the recruitment process. This is also true of some Masters programmes where selection among a pool of highly academically qualified applicants ultimately takes place on extra-curricular factors ie appropriate summer internships, language fluency, numeracy etc

I work in a university careers service specifically with graduates. I haven't read the whole thread but has he engaged with his uni careers service? There are graduate jobs out there but it is competitive so his applications need to be as strong as they possibly can me. Get his CV and cover letters checked, do mock interviews, get support and practice with assessment centres, practice video interviews case studies. This is all available, free, from the careers service and often then have life long support. I see so many grads who have applied for 100s of jobs and not made it past the first stages but this is often because they haven't engaged with the careers service or have limited work experience. Once they do some sessions, volunteering (if no exp)... they tend to then move forward and secure something. It's a slog, takes dedication and perseverance but this approach will eventually pay off.

And many end up doing a masters to kick the can down the road but there is not much difference in increasing employability doing that for most sectors or grad schemes. Experience, strong applications and interviews trump PG quals for most careers.

Another issue is overuse of AI (which is understandable after so many applications) but I can (and graduate employers) can spot it a mile off. The use is not so much the problem but that AI makes applications very generic and doesn't capture the individual accomplishments or skills developed in context. So they will automatically be less impactful.

Also 70% of grad jobs are through the 'hidden job market' eg through building a network and doing work experience. Applying for roles online is only one job search strategy. Doing 'informational interviews' (Yale have a great webpage about how to go about these) is a great way of starting to build a network and increase visibility for grads.

Some graduate schemes are now only recruiting from Masters. It's a tough world.

@anotherglass I posted on another thread and got my ass handed to me but anyway. In the pandemic I worked for the government in DWP matching young people to jobs it was in Bristol so alot of high qualified grads plus regular kids. This government has started a new initiative signed up by many companies they get £3k for signing up depending where you are could be an option is he signing on ? He shd be if you get a good work coach they will help

Yes, def subject/sector/career specific. I would always tailor my guidance to the grad I'm working with if they are weighing up whether or not to do a masters. I realise my comment above is a generalisation!

@mids2019 Employers have had tests for a while though. They are aware not all grads are identical. Some will really stand out and too many scattergun applications and don’t pay attention to selling their skills and how they fit the employers requirements. Detail matters. If they can talk about what they did volunteering or working, so much the better. Making sure they extract skills from running university clubs and events and writing well with no mistakes is also key.

Yes, masters are not required for many jobs but depends on the field. Better to have the MEng and not the BEng for example. A masters in, say, History, won’t necessarily impress anyone. Learning about how businesses operate could be more beneficial.

The majority of the intake on the grad scheme DS has luckily joined have work experience from a year in industry or a different first job after graduation (including some who had taken non grad roles with the same company and then got on to the grad scheme). Their ages go up to late 20's. DS was atypical as a brand new grad. Agreeing with @applecharlotte 08.10 that experience counts for a lot. DS worked in the university holidays which I'm sure helped.

Same with my DD. Out of 7, they either had masters or had already worked for a few years in non grad roles in the industry. My DD has a year in industry but was the youngest to be taken on at 22. Others are mid twenties.

Of people are starting to filter on work experience or further degrees does this not proportionately impact those that can't rely on family funding reducing the social mobility that was meant to be a result of university expansion.

It's not as simplistic as that.

Where supply outstrips demand, it is inevitable that the selection criteria become tighter. Resourceful students from any background can get high quality work experience, but the most important resource is not money - it's knowledge and nous.

I was the first generation of my family to go to uni and have done well for myself, but I'm not complacent about my children's futures. I've developed an understanding of the UK's graduate employment landscape from reading Mumsnet etc over many years and following current affairs and job adverts. I've used this knowledge to subtly encourage my children from a young age to enjoy subjects that will also benefit their future employment prospects, and to apply for relevant experiences and part time jobs. They have an advantage over students with less knowledge/experience, including many from very privileged backgrounds who assumed they could carve out a lucrative career from any degree and no work experience.

My friend’s DS didn’t get a job until well past a year after graduation, ie autumn 25.. She was a bit despairing but he did it, I think he did an integrated masters also in engineering or something very similar.
DS will be looking in a few months’ time - it’ll be a tough process - I’d advise him to get any job and any cv/interview help he can get.
Volunteering is good, hobbies, anything that gets him out of the house. DS will resume driving lessons as a licence may help him secure a role which would be inaccessible by public transport.

Yes, this is a huge, challenging issue and it's important to acknowledge the 'system' they are graduating into. The university I work for has a large proportion of students from low socio-economic backgrounds, caring responsibilities, part time jobs, or are the first in their families to go to university, so don't have a professional network to tap into/get advice from about recruitment processes etc.

Unfortunately, the graduate job market is not equitable, and in our careers service, social mobility is a key focus. Eg run targeted programmes for current students and recent graduates who, according to our data, face additional barriers to securing a grad role. For example, paid internships that are ring fenced for certain groups, additional appointments, micro placements that are virtual and part time but still CV worthy and can be fitted around paid part time work. We get an additional pot of money from the government to fund these kinds of initiatives.

However, I think sometimes graduates don't realise how valuable the above are until they have left and don't apply whilst at university to maximise these opportunities. Or, they are determined to focus on their studies and get a good degree, which is totally understandable given the current cost of going to university. It's really tricky. I have so much empathy for this generation and the challenges they face.

But it's never too late to start building experience (even if it's just a couple of hours a week volunteering) and like I said, we offer lifelong support to our grads (inc. access to all appointments and resources) so we try and encourage as many as possible who are struggling to find work to come back to us.

I came from a similar background to a lot of our students it's why I find this work so meaningful.

I agree with this and in my experience the increasing use of AI has meant recruiters placing less focus on the quality of a written application and more on interview or as you say relevant ecperience. The result is that those responsible for work experience etc. become the gatekeepers to professions and again in my experience there is a bias here. One example is in my local hospital where medics give work experience to children of their colleagues as a favour or in their view a means of supporting other NH S colleagues.

I can see opportunities for working class children receding not expanding. The middle classes always have methods of gaining advantage in this area and more so with a changing economy.

Defence industry? BAE and Babcock have wide ranging apprenticeships.

@anotherglass Has your DS applied for any public sector roles, in particular MOD. He would be snapped up with those skills. The only caveat is that there is currently a freeze on recruitment, however for specialist niche skills he might strike lucky.

Keep your eyes on Civil Service Jobs.

I've just checked and there's an entry level job (6 posts available)
https://www.civilservicejobs.service.gov.uk/csr/index.cgi?SID=dXNlcnNlYXJjaGNvbnRleHQ9MTc5NjEyNTEwJnBhZ2VjbGFzcz1Kb2JzJm93bmVyPTUwNzAwMDAmcGFnZWFjdGlvbj12aWV3dmFjYnlqb2JsaXN0JmpvYmxpc3Rfdmlld192YWM9MTk4ODAwMCZvd25lcnR5cGU9ZmFpciZzZWFyY2hzb3J0PXNjb3JlJnNlYXJjaHBhZ2U9MSZyZXFzaWc9MTc3NDE2NTc1NC0wNTBjZDE2NjczMzA2ZDZhMmZiYzQ5YzkwNGNmY2U4MTlhMTVlNDYx

Engineering Apprentice (Mechanical or Electronics Pathway)
organisation: Defence Science and Technology Labs Dstl.

Closing date today!!

Sun 22 Mar 23:59

Reference number450118
Salary £25,470

Reading a post upthread has made me worried.
Am I now right in thinking that DS2’s BSc (as opposed to an MSc) in Civil Engineering won’t be as useful as we thought in helping him to gain employment?

Posts that includes phrases like "the middle class always ..." and talk down the prospects of "working class children" are unhelpful. Individual parents will always use their knowledge and connections to help their children - working class parents do that too.

But it is a red herring. Bright young people from all backgrounds have opportunities to get apprenticeships or go to uni - there are many safeguards/initiatives in place to level the playing field. To use your example, medical school admissions tutors are fully aware of the opportunity landscape and don't favour candidates with hospital experience over candidates with experience working/volunteering in, for example, social care, or with children. But they would favour a candidate who had worked/volunteered in those settings over someone with no experience at all, or less relevant experience. Class has nothing to do with this. If interested in the medical profession, it is important to demonstrate commitment to caring, and empathy for those in your care, not specifically hospital experience.

The problem with candidates using AI is that it turns poorly written applications into well written applications, making it more difficult to sift out poor communicators (if communication is important for the role). On the recruiter's side, AI treats all applications the same - applying the same criteria - which favours candidates who know how to tailor their CV to the likely criteria.

My employer doesn't use AI to sift candidate, but that means we have to read through hundreds of applications. We still apply the same criteria to all of them - but we have to do it manually so it takes longer.

Whether AI is used or not, candidates who are known to the recruiters, either because they are internal or because they are part of their network from previous jobs, are likely to get noticed and progressed through sifting more readily than those that aren't. Again, this isn't a class thing, just a way of sorting wheat/chaff or signal/noise when there are many similar applications and you don't have time to interview everyone.

@RipplePleaseEmployment as what? An engineer? The MEng is always better. Why didn’t he do that course? The professional qualification is limited to IEng without a masters. CEng is masters only so separate masters or integrated. Often BEng is useful but its second division: DS and you must have known this. If he wants engineering, ask SMEs for work experience or a summer job.