Medicine or finance !

[Anna2111]

Hoping for some advice- mydd 16 is trying to choose between medicine and finance careers. Good GCSEs 9 9’s, 1 ‘8’ and a levels predicted 3 a stars - very good at maths. Thinking of adding FM if doing finance/ economics.

Finance seems better pay initially but university selection matters more( lse tc hard to get in ) - but long term do you still need to work crazy hours when you are 40?
she is interested in global markets not trading.
but not sure about people in finance is it really cutthroat ? Is there job security ? Is it rewarding ?

medicine - rewarding but long hours. But hours reduce if get to be consultant but given job crisis not sure if everyone will be to consultant.

any advice would be appreciated! Maybe anyone with kids who are Resident docs or economics graduates.

thank you !

Thanks for your post and I appreciate your opinions. Obviously my dd is very young and inexperienced and is speaking subjectively .
I am not concerned about how she will cope, When she starts working full time she will find out what the reality is and if she doesn’t like it , knowing my dd she will leave .
I am a former solicitor and thought that working as a lawyer would be glamorous . Spent too much of my childhood watching LA Law. The reality was different .
All I can say is that she is an extremely intelligent, capable young lady who loved her Summer internship and as a result was offered a job which I know that she will excel in.

MN is a public site where people have varying views on all manner of subjects .However one would have to do their own research .
Thanks again

.

I agree with all of this!

They couldn't really be more different in terms of career. One is motivated by wanting to help people, the other is motivated by wanting lots and lots of money.

I'd say if she's even considering something so far removed from medicine then she probably shouldn't go for it.

She had done a bit of volunteering so far - 8 weekly sessions teaching disadvantaged kids, 5 months weekly mornings volunteering at children’s hospice housekeeping. She wanted to do medicine as it combined helping people and having a good income. Now she is realising 1. That maths is easy for her 2. That medicine has issues with job security which she wasn’t aware of before 3. That she could earn more in finance and do volunteering also and still help people.

Realistically they are both going to be well paid. Go for the one she will enjoy the most.

We are only in this world for a set amount of time being able to enjoy work as well as leisure makes the most of it, in my eyes.

We hear a lot about working conditions in medicine but also some move abroad for more options.

Finance at the highly paid levels does come with burn out young. Financial crashes, which do happen, also appear to have been very stressful for those in the investment side of banking. Im an FCA and had burn out a bit later - in my early 50s but Im an outlier as its rarer in accounting (i.e I know many still doing well in their 60s).

Not entirely helpful I know but where the two options are going to be well paid whatever you do, Id go for the passion.

Not sure if anyone else has mentioned this, and it may not be her preference at all, but the most comfortably off and the least stressed parents at DS's school are not the doctors (of which there are many) - they're the dentists.

She sounds great. It sounds like there are positives to both but as a maths whizz I'd say finance might be 'easier' in some ways?
But medicine is so much more of a benefit to society.

Dh is a dentist, associate, so not having to own the practice, 9-5 job, 1 hour lunch break. . Dd has done 2 lots work experience there , absolutely sure she doesn’t want to do it. Says it’s too repetitive and not interesting to her. But for those who are interested it’s one of the few well paid 9-5 jobs which don’t require endless exams / moving jobs etc! Also job satisfaction in helping people. It has its own challenges and stress though.

Your DD can consider doing a Maths degree and see where it takes her. Lots of Maths graduates work in tech firms / hedge funds earning £££ without necessarily the hours or responsibility of finance / medicine, which are the traditional careers that no longer attract the best candidates in the 21st century.

Def true, OP. I am Maths adjacent. Our top graduates who go to the big tech firms can be on 6 figure salaries very quickly and the successful ones 7 figures by mid career (this includes stock options). And mostly they enjoy their work intrinsically, not just for the adrenaline rush of doing deals.

have you thought of the impact of AI? I would have thought medicine is the better choice on that front but perhaps that’s naive

We will always need people who can understand and develop AI.

OP there are loads of finance virtual work experience opportunities via ucas/ springpod, uptree and forage.

ey- what’s that got to do with the price of fish? I’m asking whether the OP‘s daughter has considered the impact of AI on the two careers she‘s considering. Shes thinking about medicine or Finance not developing AI

Im a lawyer and AI will likely reshape the profession in the coming decade. It‘s worth thinking about what the job will be in the future. Not just what it is now.

You wondered above whether medicine would be a better choice than finance because of the impact of AI.

I’m saying that people who understand both finance and something of AI, which is a reasonable expectation for a quant specialist, will be very desirable employees.

If you work in finance, it’s already essential to “understand something of AI”. That ship has sailed. I work in one of the leading global banks and we all use AI every day with new capabilities constantly being rolled out. It is embedded within our organisation and within those of our clients and service providers (and where it’s not, they’re having to catch up very quickly to stand any chance of remaining competitive). “Understanding something of AI” is the modern equivalent of “understanding something of Microsoft”.

I mean, being able to develop new applications of AI. The person I was responding to seemed worried about AI usurping jobs.

I am a Russell Group STEM academic and bluntly put I meant that students in strong Maths, Statistics, Data Science, Physics, Engineering and of course CS programmes can elect modules that will position them to contribute to AI and develop applications for their sectors, not just to use it.

To pursue your analogy, it is the difference between working for Microsoft and using Microsoft.

Of course there are medical doctors doing the same thing and PP was alluding to this. That is a very exciting field of research.

Perhaps I wasn’t clear enough in my previous post. The AI ship has already sailed. There has been significant increased demand in finance for data scientists and Python programmers etc over the past few years but that market will be saturated well before the OP’s DD graduates (given that she’s only 16 now). Job candidates with deep finance and AI understanding are going to be a ten a penny within a few years (or sooner).

I wish I could give a lot more detail to explain further but I don’t want to risk outing myself (I’m less concerned personally but my employer would be very unhappy with me). So trying to be vague-ish, I’ve been in finance for a long time and currently work for one of the big names (world leading in many areas actually) and as part of my role I work alongside my organisation’s global innovation team of data scientists, quants, AI/ML specialists etc who lead most of the in-house dev/consulting work in this space. I also get involved externally and as an example I was in lengthy workshops last week with 2 of the founders of a very successful US based start-up that are already working with Goldman Sachs and are hoping to work with my organisation to deliver a business-specific AI and data ‘solution’ for us globally. Prior to my current role, I was one of the UK FS management team for a global consultancy specialising in data and insights so I’ve worked with (and recruited) my fair share of data scientists etc over the past 10+ years.

This is very interesting.
What would you recommend for STEMy youngsters career/education wise?

Mathematical modelling will continue to evolve ad infinitum. This will apply to the field of finance as well as anything else. The limits, limitations and uses of AI will continue to evolve with it. The skills required to work effectively will vary over time and place.

Job candidates with what computer scientists call deep understanding of AI are not ten a penny; high level tech hires are very expensive and time consuming. I suspect we are using language in different ways.

As one example, the role of AI within maths itself has been very limited. But today of all days a preprint was posted on the main Physics-Maths-CS server arxiv.org called First Proof. It is in the CS section under AI.

It lists a series of 10 small (as in self contained) research level maths problems that the authors - all eminent mathematicians including a Fields medallist - have solved and then asked AI to solve. The authors have posted the solutions publicly but in encrypted form and are encouraging mathematicians to give them a go. They will publish the AI proof attempts or summaries thereof, with discussion, later this month.

For now, they have indicated that with just one iteration the AI results are not very good.

You seem to see AI as a done and dusted thing. I beg to differ.

I agree that we’re talking at cross-purposes. My posts are written in the context of career opportunities within banking (with or without AI deep knowledge) as the OP’s DD is specifically interested in banking, or even more specifically in global markets.

Job candidates with what computer scientists call deep understanding of AI are not ten a penny
That’s not what I wrote. I wrote that they will be ten a penny by the time the OP’s DD graduates in 5-6 years time.

high level tech hires are very expensive and time consuming.
No more than other experienced hire in finance and/or tech. How much experience of recruiting for tech hires in finance do you have? I’ve been doing it for almost 20 years for a variety of banks as well as on behalf of banking clients. I’m one of the global recruit leads for my current team so reviewing applications, interviewing and hiring across Europe, Middle East, Asia and the Americas. There is no shortage of good candidates, especially at present.

It’s a cliche to some extent but the best career/education advice imo is always to go in the direction that you are passionate about AND have a natural ability/inclination for. If not, there’s a huge risk of your ‘career’ turning into a ‘job’ (that you hate) and/or struggling to be successful. Life is hard enough without choosing to be a square peg in a round hole.

Most youngsters have zero clue what they want to do. And that’s okay, normal even. Study what interests/motivates them whilst trying to keep as many doors open as possible. Try to get work experience or internships in areas that might be of interest (like the OP’s DD has done). For me those first few years of working were about finding out what motivated me and what I liked and disliked and what my skills really were versus what my employers thought my skills were (it’s not always what you think!).

I don’t believe cutting edge AI specialists will be ten a penny, because as my post shows, AI still has so far to go. And it will evolve in directions we cannot foresee.l

Whether FS really wants people at the cutting edge or whether you are interested in training people on existing systems, you know better than me. Our students who go into the field find a lot of variability between the analytical and technical skills required for jobs in the field and the language different firms use to describe their work.

As I’ve stated I am an academic I can only assume your last question was rhetorical. Cheap shot.

@Anna2111 My DD has several high earning friends in “finance”. The highest paid was PPE from Oxford. My DD says they come up for air occasionally. Medicine is a slog but these highly paid young people are probably doing longer hours of intense work. That’s why loads don’t make it! It’s better suited to people who really really want that lifestyle and it’s nothing like medicine! The playing can be hard too.

These jobs are very hard to get too. Not only have these dc come from very competitive uni courses, they then see off thousands who want these jobs. Medicine isn’t as competitive.

I think it comes down to personality. She sounds like she would enjoy status - surgeon as opposed to GP! Finance gives status via earnings and medicine through doing good. What does she really want?

@OhDear111 are you aware doctors are unemployed ? It's beyond competitive these days, just to get a job. Longer hours ? What more than 13 hour night shifts ? 60+ hour weeks, not through choice but because the rota says you must.

Finance has long hours but v good pay (I know, I used to do it). But no one dies if you make a wrong decision at 2am.