Medicine or finance !

[Anna2111]

Hoping for some advice- mydd 16 is trying to choose between medicine and finance careers. Good GCSEs 9 9’s, 1 ‘8’ and a levels predicted 3 a stars - very good at maths. Thinking of adding FM if doing finance/ economics.

Finance seems better pay initially but university selection matters more( lse tc hard to get in ) - but long term do you still need to work crazy hours when you are 40?
she is interested in global markets not trading.
but not sure about people in finance is it really cutthroat ? Is there job security ? Is it rewarding ?

medicine - rewarding but long hours. But hours reduce if get to be consultant but given job crisis not sure if everyone will be to consultant.

any advice would be appreciated! Maybe anyone with kids who are Resident docs or economics graduates.

thank you !

Medics can be as cut throat and competitive as finance workers tbh. Surgeons are often psychopaths… NHS is famously full of bullying.

My sister was horribly ostracized doing medicine at uni because the middle class southern students thought she was ‘rough’. Even though they were studying in OUR home city they mocked her accent.

So she shouldn’t assume medics are all saints and finance workers all Wolf of Wall Street. It doesn’t work that way.

I understand her fear of the unfamiliar though.

Doctor here. It sounds like she isn't that enthusiastic about medicine - in which case don't do it.

I think surgeons are usually the ‘finance bros’ ( as my daughter calls them) of medicine. Especially orthopaedics. Apart from hand surgeons and gynae there as many female surgeons so in that sense it’s similar to finance !

Definitely medicine given the current job market. AI is not going to take over the role of a doctor!

There is something else to consider about Finance.
Yes, it does involve very long hours, and yes, it is a very lucrative career at the top of the ladder.

But Finance is one of the areas expected to be hit by AI hardest. Entry and mid level jobs will disappear very fast, it's already happening in the most advanced businesses and will start soon in mainstream ones. Given that it used to be a very popular career choice and we have oversupply of finance professionals, I expect this to be a very tough run.

I worked for investment banks for over 10 years supporting traders back in the 00s - there were no female traders! And no traders over the age of 40 - they all burn out and retire with lots of money. I hated every second of it - they were mainly arrogant and rude but they did do incredibly long hours.

Soul destroying job - you're not doing anyone in the world any good, just making a ton of money for a business that will fire you in a second if you make a mistake.

The trouble with medicine is that there is a huge international oversupply of junior doctors. Private medical schools particularly in Asia are pumping out graduates in large numbers, supplemented by English language medical schools in Eastern Europe, the Caribbean and Africa. In order to progress you need both patients and training. Many countries have developed private sectors but less developed state sectors. Private patients expect to be treated by consultants, so graduates need to look overseas for that initial experience. The deal used to be that the NHS would employ International Medical Graduates. Half would return to make a contribution to their own countries, half would stay.

With the current numbers of medical graduates from across the world looking for jobs the demand for entry level NHS jobs has increased exponentially. Hospitals routinely get hundreds of applications for not particularly attractive staff jobs even in unpopular specialities. Then with the growth of medical tourism there are a lot of places (Singapore, Dubai, etc) where doctors can move onto when they have experience and training.

By treating medical staff as an international commodity and by not having resident priority for entry level jobs, many of our graduates are either finding themselves in zero hour locum jobs and short term contracts, or are having themselves to go overseas for that initial experience. Luckily there is demand in Australia and New Zealand, whilst the US is increasingly looking to hire our graduates. If they can get the experience and training they need and get it recognised by the GMC (gaining equivalence even for Australian qualifications takes several years during which you can only locum) there will be vacancies. The NHS is haemorrhaging more senior doctors - pay and conditions aren't great by international standards. But it is a tricky path to get there.

Yes and medicine has its ortho-bros. Arguably more macho than finance-bros as they deal in life and death.

Does your DD genuinely enjoy maths (rather than just finding it easy)? If so, I'd maybe go down the maths (or maths with a side of computer science or engineering) route and look at hedge fund / systematic trading roles. More fun than working in an Investment Bank and much more interesting technology.

Exactly this. I’ve been in the industry for 25+ years (and worked in multiple countries in a variety of big name players) and I’m racking my brains to think if I’ve ever worked with (or even met) any female traders and I can think of two (who’d left trading already when I met them). You get relatively more women in sales but a lot less in trading which is still very male dominated. Certain banks are more cut throat than others (keep away from the American banks if that’s a concern) and certain products as well, but these days the competition is so intense and the internal (and external) cost pressures so high that the only security is (are) the ones being traded.

@Anna2111 you said in your original post that “she is interested in global markets not trading”? So why are we talking about trading? Was that a typo? Or a misconception? There are lots of traders in Global Markets (GM). What exactly is it that she’s looking for outside medicine?

Also, why does her choice seem to be so binary between medicine or economics? It doesn’t have to be economics. If she loves maths and has decided against medicine, why doesn’t she do maths or something vaguely similar? Would she be interested in becoming a quant? (Note that most banks these days expect a PhD for quants). As previously suggested, she might be better off looking at becoming an actuary if she loves maths but doesn’t want to work in the brutal world of banking. Years ago we used to joke that actuaries are people who found accountancy too exciting but these days that’s not necessarily a bad thing. Excitement can be overrated.

I also agree with the comments about AI replacing so many jobs in banking. I work for one of the big name global ‘bulge bracket’ banks and use AI every day. We all do. It would be very unusual for someone not to use it frequently, and we continue to roll out more and more AI globally across our organisation (I was actually in a 4 hour workshop earlier today looking at how we can better use AI to implement £millions worth of savings / efficiencies in one of our divisions globally). What that means is that the competition for ‘human roles’ is more intense than ever as the need for more junior staff to start out by doing ‘grunt work’ has been eliminated.

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Only go into medicine if there is nothing else you would rather do
My niece has started medical school and has regrets . She realised that she didn’t really want to study medicine she just liked the idea of it .
The work is a slog and the pay is generally not fantastic
Finance is also very competitive with brilliant pay but can be very demanding . It really depends on what area of finance you enter . So if you decide to go into investment banking or corporate banking the hours can be longer than someone who decides to go into securities which is less demanding and still pays well
My dd2 has secured a job at one of the top banks this year . Her starting salary is about 70k which does not include bonuses . She took part in the Summer internship in Corporate banking and regularly left at 7am and arrived home at 11pm. Thankfully she enjoyed the work but has already said that she only plans to stay in this type of work for a maximum of five years and then go into a more family friendly area of finance
You do not need a degree in economics / finance / maths etc to work in finance .
My dd will be working with people who have degrees in Law, biomedical science , pharmacy , medicine , mechanical engineering etc

I know someone very high up in Finance and a Surgeon with a niche specialism. The finance person earns significantly more (but is c8 years older). The Surgeon lived on a low wage for a hell of a lot longer, delayed having kids (now can only have 1 due to age) and also had a failed marriage due to the stress. The corporate finance person ended up with a failed marriage due to the £££ lifestyle taking over their lives. The surgeon is looking to relocate to US to gain the very big bucks (more than UK based finance). Both are finally happy in their 40s, but have both been through the mill to get there. Whatever she chooses, these are hard careers.

So if you decide to go into investment banking or corporate banking the hours can be longer than someone who decides to go into securities which is less demanding and still pays well. My dd2 has secured a job at one of the top banks this year . Her starting salary is about 70k which does not include bonuses . She took part in the Summer internship in Corporate banking and regularly left at 7am and arrived home at 11pm

I know you mean well @Lampzade but it’s very obvious that you don’t know FS by what you’ve written here. It might be better to avoid giving advice about areas that you know nothing about or you’re going to confuse the poor OP and her DD even further.

Securities refers to a range of financial instruments / asset classes. They are a fundamental part of any investment bank offering (as well as other that of wealth management, asset management, hedge funds etc etc) so your comment that securities is less demanding than investment banking makes zero sense. I’m also guessing that you actually mean corporate finance rather than corporate banking. If your DD was working 7am-11pm in corporate banking then something was very wrong and/or extremely unusual.

I’m a surgeon ( year 5 consultant) . Over the last 30 years, I have had a very interesting career and many fun times but emotionally and financially it has been really tough.
The personal sacrifices and pressure are huge. Things are much worse for resident doctors now . Plenty unable to get any job. The NHS treats staff badly.

I would not encourage a child of mine to do medicine. As others have said it’s a career only for a bright young person who cannot see anything else they want to do.

Thank you everyone for taking the time to write your messages. They have been really helpful.
It seems that the take home message is that unless she really can’t envision herself doing anything else apart medicine then it’s probably not right for her. It was really interesting to hear from ‘Olympicrock’ as there aren’t that many female consultant surgeons around.

Both careers are hard with long hours - but she is very hard working. One of the main draws for medicine was that previously once you got in, you were almost guaranteed to become a gp / consultant- but job security has reduced drastically! Although finance is also tough at least there are several employers.
DD is only really keen on orthopaedics and plastics and if she can’t do those, she is not keen. Which is not realistic as there is no guarantee that she can do those specialties.

She already has hospital work experience booked for feb half term and I’m really hoping that she can make a decision after that. She gets to speak to current F1 and F2 also which will help. It’s stressing her out not knowing what to do as she needs to decide between continuing to catch up on further maths or finishing her medical related EPQ soon!
After that she will need to commit to one and then I’ve said if she changes her mind later, she could always take a gap year and do gain some experience in both. Then reapply. Deciding a career at 16 is not easy !

Finance unless they have a strong desire to do medicine
It’s obviously a rewarding job ,but such haRd work and I think is less attractive to the really top students than previously

Seems like she only has her sights set on ‘prestigious’ careers?

Get her some work experience in a care environment to start. May help her decide if a medical career is for her.

Re specialities I’d say almost nobody ends up doing what they thought they’d do at the outset of medical school

Yes it is corporate finance
With respect , I am only talking about what my dd has told me . I do not have a financial background , I have a legal background
Dd2 worked for an IB as a Summer intern and told me that those who worked in securities worked from 9-5 whereas those who worked in areas such as IB and corporate finance worked longer hours . She also said areas such as wealth management are less demanding
My intention is not to confuse anyone , my intention is to give advice based on what my own dd told me .
However, I appreciate your post

I agree completely with @Rubb
I remember on our first day the Dean of the Medical School came in to talk to the new intake and he asked us to put our hands up to indicate what specialty we thought we were ultimately going to work in. Something like 80% of the hands went up for surgery, with a significant proportion of those staying up for neurosurgery. He then told us that maybe one person in the room would become a Consultant Neurosurgeon. We all thought we were that one of course! I don't know if my year group did produce a brain surgeon or not, but if it did, it's certainly not anyone that I know.
Off the top of my head I can only think of 3 of my cohort who became surgeons, 2 women and one man. There must be more that I don't know about as we were a big year, but certainly nowhere near the number who put their hands up on day 1! Obviously it is not because all of the rest of us failed in our ambition or because we were useless. Most of us had decided by the time we graduated or soon afterwards that we didn't want to be surgeons after all. The "glamorous" specialties aren't necessarily so interesting and exciting once you find out what they are really like. Many of us find a passion for specialties we knew nothing about, or had possibly never even heard of when we started medical school and others discover that their aptitude and interest is actually in a field that the teenage them would have dismissed as boring.

@Anna2111 assume she knows she has to sit the UCAT this summer for medicine ?

Yes she did a practice vr ucat last week and got 750 which is > 90th centile. So hopefully she can revise and get a good score over summer if she decides on medicine.

Agreed I know lots of doctors dead set on surgery even later in their career, who ended up in another specialty at the end.

If I asked 100 female doctors would you advise your children to do medicine and 100 women in finance the same question - some would yes some would say no! There are pros and cons of both careers. I’m sure it’s the same in teaching/ law etc. When you do a job yourself you see good and bad parts and the grass can be greener elsewhere but until you do another job you won’t know !

I think insight via work experience and speaking to junior doctors will help. But finance work experience is very difficult to get.

Would something in bio tech satisfy both her interests? So many interesting start ups in this area - where AI is a plus rather than a jobs destroyer.

@Anna2111 that's an amazing score for no practice ! Would get her interviews everywhere but Bristol and UCL this year.
My DD is an ST1 and whilst the NHS is a mess and doctors are treated like rubbish, moving every 6-12 months with no say in where they go, she loves her job. It's not something to go into half hearted though.

I am a hospital consultant and my husband is an actuary. I would say don’t go into medicine unless you really want that. I feel I have made a lot of sacrifices generally in my life to get to this point and it was fairly straightforward for me. I did 8 years of training and became a consultant.
my husband had a lot of exam stress but his job is a lot more flexible than mine. Since having children I have realised how important that is!

Thanks @Lampzade. I say this as kindly as possible but your DD has a lot to learn (as would be expected so that’s not a criticism) and it might be wiser for her to observe and absorb while she learns and be more thoughtful when she’s offering her opinion/judgement. Interns (and grads to some extent) are treated very gently (compared to the rest of a bank) but her comments indicate how little she knows/understands. The naivety of youth of course. She will learn as she goes but I’d advice some caution with her opinions (outside of her ‘safe circle’ with friends and family) as some people will judge her for her lack of knowledge/awareness and some people will quite possibly be offended (those working in wealth management for a start!). I’m trying to write this as gently as possible with good intentions. If your DD met me in a professional context I most likely would not be so gentle, nor would my peers.