Engineering - MSc or BSc?

[TheGander]

My son is taking a year out and applying for an engineering degree. He’s asked me whether it’s better to go for a BSc then apply
to convert to MSc, or go straight into a 4 year MSC course. I know he’d be more employable with an MSc but I think he’s slightly intimidated by the 4 year commitment. If he’s better off going for MSc at this stage it would’ve good to know! Thanks for any advice.

My DS is doing Aeronautical engineering, and he had the same debate, and he went for three year and converted to the four year MSC at the end of year one, having scored the required score in end of year exams.

That was the requirement - if you wanted to change you had to score over a certain amount of those exams, because of course the entry requirements of the MSc were slightly higher.

He was told when he applied, and also when he got there, it didn't matter which route you took - whether you applied to start with, or whether you apply for the BSC and then converted. Of course it may differ by institution, so it's probably best to check specifically.

He may well find he can swap between them at least up to the second year - check with the unis he's considering. I know that for MMath, we were told to apply for the four year course because it's administratively simpler to drop down to three years than to add the year.

The integrated 4 year course is an MEng. Afaik MScs are separate postgrad qualifications.
(and the 3 year is usually BEng unless it’s an oddity like Oxbridge)

MEng is a much better deal in terms of the student loan because it’s one undergrad loan!

whether a student can do the MEng rather than BEng depends how they do in the first year or two.

Sorry, yes, I meant MEng!!

As others have said - apply for MEng.

Thank you so much everyone. I’m going to show him this thread rather than try and explain. Hadn’t thought of MEng vs MSc! Obviously not the same thing.

Apply for the MEng. It's usually the same grades anyway. That way you get funded for the full 4 years or 5 with year abroad or in industry without having to apply for the extra year.

The integrated MEng is better for funding than a postgraduate MSc and easier to get chartered status with a masters degree.

Hi, OP -

The 4 year course is usually called MEng. An MSc is usually, essentially, Y4 plus a more substantial thesis than the MEng project or thesis. MEng graduates are usually eligible for most of the same jobs as MSc graduates, with a few exceptions, and the MEng degree suffices for the Master’s aspect of Chartered status.

@PatriciaHolm is correct: for the first 2 years it is usually very easy to swap between BEng and MEng. In fact, there is usually an academic requirement at the end of Y2 and Y3 to proceed to the next year of the MEng and those who don’t meet it are swapped down. Students on BEng who do meet it usually find that their School is happy to take another year of fees ( sometimes the swap must be done by the end of Y2.).

Student Finance is also flexible, but it is somewhat easier to shorten rather than extend the length of your loan. This is a reason to consider starting on MEng.
It is far from crucial, however. DS really can’t go wrong and should do whatever makes him most comfortable.

He should also confirm with admissions tutors that a gap year is fine. I think it is, and the trend is moving in that direction, but in STEM there is a historical worry that students will lose their maths during a gap year and I know a (very) few are still reluctant to allow it.

Best wishes to DS

Thanks everyone. One slight issue is he got AAA ; no A* so some MEng courses are excluded but he could do the BEng. He’s applying for a variety. Does anyone know whether universities can see the other unis someone has applied to, or only see the application aimed at them? ( he’s a bit worried because he’s applying for different engineering specialties).

Cannot see the other unis, OP

Thank you that’s good news.

Some university staff can see - but it’s not used in decision making!

Good to know! I love mumsnet for this kind of thing, such a spread of knowledge.

If you apply for more than one degree programme at a given uni, there are people in Admissions who can see this. Policy varies.

In my Faculty you might only be offered admission to one degree programme. That might be the one most in need of bums on seats. To the extent that it’s all the same to us, we would try to work with you and someone from Faculty admissions (or School admissions, if the programmes were all in the same School) would likely ask you about your priorities.

He’ll be applying for one course only at each university so I hope he should be ok. Ideally he’d have settled on just one area of engineering but he also has to work with the different entry requirements and being excluded from some courses because he doesn’t have an A*.

Sounds fine.

As others have said - apply to MEng, drop down once there if needed. Also, the uni may offer a BEng if they feel that his grades for that and not the MEng, even if he applies for MEng.

As he is applying grades in hand, it is worth checking if those with standard A star AA offers would admit him, as many do take a dropped grade in clearing. If you post specific unis, those on the thread may well have an idea if an AAA application would be considered.

Whatever he goes for B/M - should definitely be looking at Eng courses not Sc ones. Unless it’s Oxford or Cambridge.

Generally - it doesn’t make a huge amount of difference. Can usually move to the other one part way through. The exact requirements and time limits will vary between courses and departments so worth looking into for each thing hes thinking of applying to. Same tends to apply to the sub specialiaties. Geberally first year is the same for all variations of mech eng, and b/meng. The differentiation comes later.

For simplifying student finance, apply for the run through masters. It’s much easier to drop a year of finance than add one. If cant get the grades, apply for the BEng and accept the finance hassle.

Thanks @SheilaFentiman . He did actually do that with 2 unis as only 1 point away from grade boundary for Maths ( got papers re- marked but grade didn’t budge). They said outright it made no difference he is an AAA candidate. But it’s good to know he could progress from BEng to MEng if necessary.

Oxbridge are MEng too. Their weirdness is that the (very few) who don’t do 4 years get a BA I think. But they won’t be on this young man’s list so I’m just being unnecessarily pedantic.

No they can’t, not until the applicant has made their decisions.

MSc courses tend to be for specialist subjects, e.g., I'm a geotechnical engineer (a specialism of civil engineering). We employ a lot of people who have done a civil engineering first degree+ Geotechnics MSc. MEng is slightly less useful as there isn't the same amount of relevant geotechnical content. But most strong candidates do an MEng for reasons stated above (easier funding etc). It's a problem in the industry getting people with the right training.

So if the person decided by year 2/3 of the MEng course they actually wanted to specialise in a niche area, they could convert to BEng and then an MSc in the 4th year. Not many do, I suppose it's seen as risky, although we have had some students do a placement year with us who have them switched to an MSc.

So an MEng is not bad but a BEng gives the chance to change direction slightly if you want in your 4th year.

Worth knowing OP - while an MEng is funded through the UG loans system, it would mean he couldn’t then get a loan for a Masters if he wanted to specialise in this way. Stopping at BEng would mean he could get a masters loan.

At every university open day for engineering that we’ve been to (two kids, one is applying now and one is in second year) they’ve been really clear that you can pick your BEng/MEng route after second year (or if your marks are poor you might get told you can only do a BEng). It feels like it’s unlikely to be something to worry about now and I think he should feel comfortable asking if he wanted to clarify with a particular uni.

@TheGander One thing to bear in mind, is that to become a Chartered Engineer he needs the integrated qualifying master’s degree (MEng) or the stand alone masters. BEng qualifies for incorporated Engineer which is the lower qualification. Both need post degree professional training as well as the degree. Therefore the MEng isn’t just cheaper it’s often a faster route to CEng too. He should read up on qualifications for engineers if he’s unsure about routes. Look at the professional institutions or the Engineering institute.

Why is he applying for different disciplines? DH is a civil and structural engineer. He likes buildings but preferred engineering to architecture. I would strongly advise your DS to research what he really likes. What disciplines is he applying for? How diverse are they and how can he demonstrate an interest in all of them on his application? What has he done in his gap year towards his application?