League table advice

[CardigansOfTheGalaxy]

We are starting to think about uni, and I'm looking for tips on how to compare places and courses. I know about The Student Room, but in terms of league tables, is one better than another? I've come across CUG and the Guardian one.

Presumably student satisfaction scores are important, what else should we look for? Amount of student contact time?

Wow Brighton did well to go up 100 places in one year 🤣, they should enter for the Nobel prize next year. Yes on 2026 Guardian economics 1 to 6 look reasonable then it seems a bit random and just looking quickly at the entry scores seem incredibly high for Glasgow compared to what UCAS has.

Agree earnings can be affected by area and also living costs can be higher in some areas.

Thanks everyone. The subject is a fairly niche arts subject, so I can see the value of choosing by subject ranking as opposed to institution ranking.

I would also check the state of cutbacks at the universities, the higher the wealth of the university helps reduce risk.

Definitely this. Some institutions (I won't name them) have cut very highly-ranked courses right back to two lecturers. Whatever guided the cuts, it wasn't student welfare, education or value for (student) money.

If its a creative arts subject, general league tables are not helpful.
Look by degree type. And visit visit visit. Its the only way.

I would check to see if anyone actually gets a job. DD did a niche fashion degree. What employer cared about it? None did. Had to do a career change course. Be very careful about niche degrees.

The other thing with league tables is that if you look at actual scores, there may be very little difference between, for example, those 10 places or more apart of the scale. So the actual difference between no 10 and no 20 can be very minor.

So if your DC knows what sort of course they want then that's the first element to address. Friend had view her DS should go to a top rank Russell place for History. He knew he wanted to do a particular kind of Military History.

Second element is location logistics. Quiet, noisy, clubby, distant, near. Affordability factors in here too.

Third element, uni course cuts.

Fourth element, does DC need support, special circs or just more rather than less welfare/support system stuff. I speak here from personal experience, if they need a healthcare safety plan or might do, make sure it's not a faceless bureaucracy you end up dealing with.

Fifth element, employability. If that's the approach you have then you need to consider this

Yes, understood there’s always risk with creative subjects in terms of careers, but sadly no amount of discussion on this seems to have made an impact. I was exactly the same at that age.

To address a couple of other points that you’ve kindly mentioned:

We don’t have predicted grades yet, as DD is in year 11. She’s doing well in the subject she wants to study at uni and is choosing A levels that don’t close doors if she suddenly does a reverse ferret. It’s too early to know but based on how she’s doing so far, I would think maybe ABB or AAB on a good day, Which I know are dreadful results in MN-land.

Apart from announcements in the news, how do lay people know if a uni is struggling financially?

City v country etc, I don’t think she has a handle yet on what that means. We live on the edge of a small town. I think visiting will help with that.

Those A level grades are great! And in any event for most creative art courses her portfolio will count much more.
You have lots of time. So as well as open days, maybe visit degree shows. This will give her a taste of the sort of work produced. She can also chat to students and tutors in an informal setting. The shows will prob start around late April onwards. My DS show is in early June, altho the course will be done before then.
Arts courses have been affected by cuts. My DS has seen the number of technicians and tutors reduced. Again I guess you have to ask the questions and read the news / local news of unis she is interested in.
There is a long running arts based thread, if you would like specific advice about a particular type of course. I'll link it in a minute.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/higher_education/4795276-art-and-design-at-university-for-past-present-and-future-students-and-parents.

Hi OP, you have had some good advice on this thread but also some which is a little old fashioned.

I have worked in HE for 15 years, I’m not an academic or an admissions professional but I have some insight.

Ultimately, university league tables are created by organisations as a money-making endeavour. No one is doing it as an altruistic service to prospective students. Yes, having various different metrics in one place can help to assimilate the information, but if you put too much weight on something as artificial as a league table place or mission group you can go wrong.

Choosing a university is a very personal decision, specific to each individual based on their ambitions and interests. You are absolutely right to start with a subject-specific lens and work out from there.

Other approaches are practical: affordability, distance from home, housing/transport considerations etc. Also, wider lifestyle preferences: city or rural, coastal or inland, large uni or small?

Some people look at graduate outcomes - % in grad level jobs or salary levels. My view is that this is not entirely reliable. Universities with very middle class-heavy graduates will fare better overall. Universities serving a regional job market or the public sector will fare worse, but will still be great universities. Graduate outcomes are much more a product of our fucked up social mobility and economy as they are a measure of university quality (and the metrics are not amazing in any case).

The best way a student can guarantee great outcomes is to be born into a nice middle class family with good social and cultural capital. On top of that, students who really take advantage of everything a university has to offer will succeed. For example, my friend’s daughter has just started at Bristol. She has 8 hours of lectures/seminars a week, so she has plenty of time to get herself down to the careers service and find out all about the millions of employability / placements / internships/ extras that are available. Too many students wait until half way through third year when they are also juggling dissertations.

Finally, on the financial stability front, yes, it’s a worry. However, last week Jacqui Smith hinted that the government is minded to intervene to avoid a “disorderly exit”, so as long as you don’t pick the University of Del Boy Trotter you will probably be fine.

Thanks again, really appreciate your thoughts and insight. And yes, thankfully we have plenty of time, she may even change her mind as to what she wants to do.

She’s looking to do a music-based course, so not visual arts, but I appreciate what you mean about seeing what work students are making, @Namechangedasouting987.

That’s all interesting info, @AlphaApple, it sounds like we’re on the right track so far.

@AlphaApple I agree with you re. social mobility and social capital, but I think there's also a reinforcing factor which is that private schools and selective state schools (which tend to be full of MC kids) drive their students towards the top ranked Unis (basically take a "go to the best ranked Uni that will take you" approach), especially for "general courses" which are not career specific (history, English, maths, pure sciences, geography, economics etc) and I think that strategy does pay off in terms of employability, despite all the talk of Uni blind recruitment. I studied history at undergrad, and the fact remains that unless you're going into academia, content really doesn't matter - no grad employer will care one jot about your special interests - whether you get an interview will be on Uni ranking and degree class. Totally accept it's different if you want to do (eg) aeronautical engineering where course ranking (by employers) is more important than Uni ranking, and links to industry are critical, or an accredited course where the qualification is the same wherever you get it from.

I guess I just wonder if the tsunami of info available to students these days (attending multiple open days, poring over detailed course outlines, virtual accommodation tours, online reviews, YouTube videos by current students) is a bit of a distraction from the fact that you'll be at Uni for 90-100 weeks of your life and that choice is going to have a pretty major impact on your employment prospects and therefore your life, so choose wisely. It seems some YP are not getting great advice on what they should be prioritising when choosing because employability really needs to be uppermost. Like, does city vs campus or slightly tired halls really matter in the scheme of things? It probably does when you're 17 and three years seems forever, but that's why they need some decent guidance.

@AllJoyAndNoFun I agree. Middle class applicants screen out slews of perfectly good universities because of their middle class / private school experience.

Student choice has always been based on “vibes” and always will 😀

I think beginner’s lessons in behavioural economics would be helpful at the start of year 12. It teaches you the fallacy of “rational choices” and how people are usually terrible at making one-off, “big” decisions.

Having said all of that, you should take comfort from the fact that the vast majority of students both enjoy their university experience and state they would make the same choice again.

Entirely agree to ignore the guardian. On no planet is Solent above Durham for law. It’s such a bizarre table I thought it was an April fools joke.
I’d use CUG or Times.

I agree with lots of the advice already been given here.
I’m a university academic but have previously worked in recruitment and admissions.
League tables and metrics can be gamed and universities can be very clever in highlighting the ones that show them in a positive light. You should always read the small print too! As a claim to be ‘top ten’ can often mean something very niche and specific rather than top ten overall!

Employability stats should be viewed with some caution too. They are based on the Graduate Outcomes Survey which has a woefully low response rate. There are people in the sector who are now using their own employability metrics as the current ones don’t really show an accurate picture.
However, if you do use them in your revision making then just be aware that these figure are showing the percentage of graduates in work or further study 15 months after graduation. There should also be a figure showing the number in graduate level employment .
What it doesn’t show of those graduates who are working in a non graduate level job but who are in a role related to their degree and on a pathway to a grad level job. This is particularly important for creative jobs as there is often a lot of freelance or entry level work in the early days of a career.

My advice would be to look at what careers support if offered to students rather than dwelling over graduate outcome stats.

For niche courses the ranking tables aren't much help anyway as they will be grouped together with other vaguely - related courses which blurs the information.

For the current state of redundancies, cuts etc at UK unis this website regularly updates:
UK HE shrinking share.google/2yEHgJJpISMe3WCrF

@AllJoyAndNoFun I agree that some students spend far too long poring over course details and for many non stem jobs, employers won’t care. There are so many more skills students should acquire beyond academics. What employer ever asked about your interest in Tudor warfare? They want to know what you can do and how you fit into their organisation. Everyone can go about a niche interest in their course so it’s of little meaning to an employer. Giving a presentation, being engaging and having critical thinking skills matter a lot more.

This is all so helpful, thanks.

Agree that getting a job on a grad scheme isn’t the way most creatives start work. I think in this case maybe we should be looking for meaningful connection with industry as a measure instead.

It’s an interesting journey compared to researching a generic subject and aiming for a place at. Russell Group.

What about teaching awards? I’m sure I’ve seen mentions of gold star and silver star, but presumably unless the staff on the particular course have that, it’s not that relevant?

Gold, silver and bronze relates to the Teaching Excellence Framework (TEF) and is an overall award for the university and doesn’t relate to individual subjects or academics. Some universities engage with TEF others less so, however it is the only official measure of teaching quality.
For a creative course I’d be really focusing on industry links and opportunities for placements and work experience.

The latest statistics from the Institute of Student Employers (ISE) suggests that 80% of graduate employers don’t specify a particular subject. They’re interested in the skills developed while studying.

@HighLadyofTheNightCourt I’m not surprised. Obviously some stem courses are a must but MN seems full of students poring over course details and rejecting those that don’t quite meet their specific need. I get they want to be engaged but getting the skills is paramount.

So I had this worry too about 'target' unis but I've spoken to a couple of senior people (who know people in HR/recruitment) and at their banks - top 10 investment banks - they are recruiting blind to the uni of the applicant.

However, as the process to secure an internship or a job involves online assessments, including aptitude, it goes without saying that a large number of students from the top unis will end up working there as they are also good at these tests (verbal reasoning, NVR, numerical, etc - IQ related).

So that is not causation but correlation.