Y10 DD wants to study PPE at Oxford

[nice2BeNice]

Y10 DD wants to study PPE at Oxford.

She is bright, very much engaged in the world around and interested in various topics. She is a keen debater and has taken part in various competitions. Top academics, Music, DofE Bronze.

How can I best support her?

We do the usual stuff of going to museums, exhibitions, talks, watching documentaries etc. I have been encouraging her to read the newspapers too, to give a taste of things to read that the apps might not think will be of interest to her!

I will be very grateful for any
Links/pointers to essay competitions/summer schools, reading lists and/or any other suggestions.

What does a typical Oxford PPE candidate look like on paper?

TIA

Best advice is to be a maths whizz. I believe only 10 percent of PPE students at Oxford don’t have Maths A level. At least that was the figure when DS was applying.
Also, Durham has a good PPE course whose grads seem very employable.
additionally Cambridge’s HSPS is an alternative. Often seen as easier to get into!

She needs excellent GCSEs tbh so that would be a start. Do you know her PGs? Ideally she would have 8 GCSEs of grade 7+.

Agree re maths A level, got to be a good thing to have for any economics degree. Then she needs to know why she wants to do it and be able to talk about that (Oxford usually interview) and give evidence of things she has done that relate to the degree specifically (so Dof E, museums, not so much (tho good if enjoyed ofc) but reading round the subject, online courses, yes).

Why does she want to go to Oxford specifically? Did you go there or does she know others who are there? If not, is she aware of how different it is from most other universities? It's a wonderful place for sure but it is not for everyone. The teaching style is very intense, with short terms and a lot of work in each term. I mean she may know all that and be on board but I thought it was worth mentioning.

Also whatever she does, she needs to have a solid back-up that she will also enjoy. I think I am right in saying that while it varies per subject, the majority of applicants to Oxford and Cambs do not get an offer.

She should look at the TSA exam, you need to do well on that to get an interview. Maybe do some past papers and look at typical scores for an offer. It’s a way they differentiate between all those applying with top predicted grades, essay comps etc etc. if you google ppe admissions manual freedom of information you can see how they select - used to be available (with some info redacted).

This also a provides useful insight…https://www.merton.ox.ac.uk/sites/default/files/inline-files/PPE%20admissions%202023-24%20information%20for%20applicants%20V01.pdf

Ooooh that's really interesting @notagain12345 (I do love a stat me). So I see that the highest proportion of candidates even interviewed (never mind offered a place) had 7 or more grade 8/9 at GCSE.

However there were some who were offered with just one or two 8/9 grades. But ideally it looks as tho you need to have majority 8/9 at GCSE. And wow! 2/3 A stars PG at A level as well. Not a guarantee tho – a high proportion of those with 9 x 8/9 or three A stars PG were not interviewed.

Sounds like she’s doing the right things - keep up the debating. Encourage her to read as widely as possible, across politics, philosophy, history and fiction. Read well beyond the syllabus in all her subjects. Listen to Radio 4 in the mornings and read newspapers - perhaps vary the paper to get a sense of their different views.

No, not 7+ they need to be mostly 9s. DD didn’t get interview at Cambridge as her (Covid assessed) GCSEs were 7s 8s and 9s. She was predicted (and got 3A*s).

I agree that the graph posted by @notagain12345 does back this up – the more 8/9 grades the better. As I understand it grade 8 and 9 are treated equally by Oxon. Just as well as about 1200 YP (nowhere near enough to fill a year at Oxford) got all 9s this year.

I'm sorry your DD didn't get an interview but it may not be bc of her GCSEs (tho I guess TAGs may have been a different situation). My understanding is that Cambs places less stress on GCSEs than Oxon. Mate of DS2's (I do quote this often but it's still true) got in to Cambs with a 6 in Eng lang (I know this bc DS2 did better than him at it and was delighted haha – "I think you promised me £50 for every GCSE grade I got higher than Josh, Mum?” errr no I don't think so lol).

But yes, the situation with TAGs may have meant a lot more YP with all or mostly 8s and 9s. Sounds like they missed a talent with your DD tho if she got three A stars. Hope she went somewhere she enjoyed.

The feedback said it was because of her GCSEs…. So it likely was.

DD had 4 x 9s, 3 x 8s, 2 x7s, 1 x 6 & a D for her GCSEs from an under performing state school. She took history, maths, English language & an EPQ at A level (maths & history are recommended for A level). She didn't have all A*s as her predicted grades but did very well in the TSA.

No competitions & no prizes, but she had a place on UNIQ at Oxford & went to some Cambridge free masterclasses.

She graduated a couple of years ago and has just completed her masters.

DD is studying Economics and Management there in her second year and shares tutorials for Economics with PPE students.

She said in her year there are only 4 students (out of 266) studying PPE who don't have Maths A level (1.5%). These get help with Maths but I would say its definitely much better to have Maths A level. I would also have an essay writing subject - something like history or politics.

Its number of 8s and 9s Oxford count and they are treated equally at Oxford (not at Cambridge). Need to do well in the entrance test though far too early for that. Then its getting through an interview showing interest and being able to think on your feet to new topics.

I don't think you need to go too into extra activities - DD did lots of maths competitions, a lot of sport, worked in a couple of jobs, interest in current affairs. It varies what people have done and will be taken in context of your school / background.

Ah fair enough. I'm sorry she missed out bc of that. But it's fair to say that the TAGs gave rise to more higher grades than some years. It says something when a candidate with all Astars and As at GCSE and all Astars at A level is not considered good enough 😮

Agree that maths is important. DS found the 1st year economics part of the course hard, and that was with maths A Level.

He was pretty much obsessed with politics though, and had already read most of the more accessible books recommended for first year before he'd started year 12.

Being able to hold your own in an argument is important, so the debating will be good.

Given the rather grim track records of PPE Graduates, David Cameron, and Liz Truss being the prime examples I suggest that she studies something else

Yes but £115,000 on expenses every year for life, £18,000 redundancy payment after 45 days work is quite hard to beat financially. Though they will be on the course with you.

Well DD is nice!

Another thought: when she gets to the point of knowing which college she wants to apply to, make sure she reads some of the books that the tutors there have written, and has done her research on the topics they're specialists in. That will help her if she gets to interview stage.

You must watch Matt Williams’s videos. He’s an Oxford PPE tutor and has a whole series on what Oxford is looking for, how to write an essay, the interview, extracurriculars, etc.

On what an Oxford candidate looks like on paper: they don’t care at all about extracurriculars that aren’t relevant to the subject. Swimming, DoE, music, etc etc. But they very much care about ones that are relevant (which they call ‘super-curriculars’). Further reading, getting involved in specific things related to P, P or E.

Basically they want students who are genuinely fascinated by their subject and who will be good at it. The best way to test that is to look for students who are already doing that in some way. Better to do a couple of things genuinely relevant and self-directed than lots of unrelated things. They also try to account for socioeconomic differences in judging that, so that people don’t get penalised for not having access to things.

Basically, tutors are people who love some aspect of their subject and have committed their lives to pursuing it. That’s what they hope to find. They are very varied other than that (very sporty to not sporty at all, for example, left wing or right wing, musical or not): that’s not what they are testing.

This describes DS too, who is in his 2nd year studying PPE. He has commented that he has the lowest GCSEs of all his friends there, but I understand the offer would have been contextualised (he got the best GCSE results at his not so great school).

He did maths and further maths at GCSE and maths at A level and I’d echo the previous poster who mentioned the economics being challenging even for those with maths!

There is some great advice upthread - the key thing I’d flag is the passion for the subject point, and the ability/desire to debate (everything…!). DS listened to a lot of podcasts from across the political spectrum.

It's wonderful that you are such a supportive parent, OP, but please don't worry too much at this stage about what she should be doing - she is only Y10. The main priority for her at this stage is just to do as well in her GCSEs as she can (contextualised GCSEs are taken seriously). Great for her to explore the subject and develop her interests but at Y10 any supercurricular interests are likely to be for interest only - she isn't going to put on her personal statement in Y13 something that she did 3 years ago. Extra curriculars, as others have said, won't directly make a difference to her application but of course it's great for her personal development to do them.

When it comes to being shortlisted for interview (less than half of PPE applicants will make it to interview stage), the key factors will be contextualised GCSEs and how well she does on the TSA exam (assuming that still exists in its current form in 3 years time). Other aspects of her application will be taken into account, inluding super-curriculars, but GCSEs and TSA are pieces of hard data for admissions tutors to look at and make direct comparisons between applicants.

I would strongly advise against this (speaking as someone who's done admissions from the other end many times). What tutors are looking for is a candidate who has found an area of the subject they are genuinely fascinated by and excited to talk about. Saying you want to talk about your interviewer's specialist area or repeating arguments that they've made in their own work risks seeming like you don't have your own interests and are hoping to suck up to the tutor.

Also, if you say you want to talk about a particular research area, you can expect a real grilling in it. An intense examination by the person who wrote the book may be exhilarating if it happens to be something you're also passionate about, but it's not going to be much fun if you only brought it up to impress the interviewer. In an interview situation, genuine motivation and thought shines through, and it is obvious when someone is just saying something because they think it looks good.

(And finally, the tutor on the college website may well not interview you. Lots of people are reallocated to another college before their interview. Even if this doesn't happen, the tutor who wrote the book may be on leave that year, or have stopped teaching at that college, or be doing an admin role which means they aren't doing admissions, or any number of other things.)

Thank you all, for taking the time to respond. I will share them with DD.

*Extra reading and self-directed work around P-P-E
*Engage with and explore adjacent subjects
*Relevant extra/super-curriculars

• Online courses, podcasts
• Considering various perspectives across a broad spectrum and arguing for your point

*Good GCSEs, solid Maths, TSA scores
*Consider Qs such as Why Oxford

*Interview skills

*HSPS
*Research into backups

Do Oxford/Cambridge do contextualisation/normalisation for GCSE grades? This is new territory for me and I am trying to understand this. She is at a school with very high GCSE attainment levels. That's going to not be a particularly useful thing, as far as contextualisation goes, I guess.

@nice2BeNice I don't know if Oxford allow GCSE grades to be lower if there is a good reason but one would hope so, Tho if her school is high-attaining it's not relevant. But tbh you do need to be a real high-flyer to enjoy Oxford. And as I said, not just that, but also a certain kind of person.

The most important thing for your DD is to work on getting the best GCSEs she can. That is way above any super curricular actitivies, useful tho they will be. As she is in year 10, a top tip from my DD is to write up anything as the year goes on – geography case studies, notes on an Eng lit text, history topics, MFL vocab. Bc you probably won't cover it again and you will be glad in May of year 11 or any work you did in December of year 10.

Yes Oxford do take into account where you got your GCSEs - details are here and same for A levels. Both are considered in context of school you took them at. https://www.ox.ac.uk/admissions/undergraduate/applying-to-oxford/decisions/contextual-data

In y10/y11 its mainly just getting as good GCSEs as she can and following her interests and keeping good mental health by taking time to do things you enjoy, sport is a great one for mental health, not essential though. There's no need for masses of extra curricular. She also might change her mind several times on subject before she applies. In year 12 I would visit a few Oxford colleges and other universities she's interested in. Then start year 13 you take TSA and very important to do well in that, then there's interviews if through that and to prepare for that its like discussing new topics considering different viewpoints. It can help to have a topic you are very interested in and can speak enthusiastically about but that needs to be of her choosing, it may not come up directly but may come up indirectly. DD was asked about hers after the formal interview ended and she comes alive and animated when speaking about it. That part didn't count but it helps to show enthusiasm for the subject. Its also good to let your DD lead this as much as possible but end y12 is when prep starts really.

@SilkiePenguin Thanks for that link.

It's being led by her very much so.
She is focused on her GCSEs at the moment; but is also interested in exploring topics outside the school textbook content. School is very much grade focused and that doesn't help for extended discussions etc. @clary , that's a good tip from your DD regarding writing; great habit to develop good learning skills.

I do try and drum it in to her that she should keep sight of the big picture and being interested in a wide range of things is just fun and not just for the University applications.

She hopes to aim for 9s. That said, the contextualisation does make me wonder about her grades, when contextualised - she is at a school where the stats is something like 90% in Grade 9-8 for GCSE.!

And going by that webpage, looks like the first stage will be mostly an automated filtering, given how many metrics there are -with scores set for everything from school to neighbourhood! Not too sure how that will all add up, not too much in her favour, I think.