Aerospace graduates going into finance - annoyed!

[RatherBeOnVacation]

My DD wants to study aerospace / aeronautical engineering at university with a view to either building things to send into space or working for an F1 team. It’s all she wants to do and has huge amounts of work experience to support this (arranged herself in her spare time).

She went to the Imperial open day recently and was horrified to learn that 25% of their recent graduates went straight into finance. A lot of them never had any intention of carrying on in engineering when they started their degree. A bit of digging online and The Student Room is full of people talking about the same thing.

Is this really a thing?

I can understand being tempted by the money, particularly with debt levels. I also get deciding it’s not for you. But it’s a specialist degree and why are you studying it for four years if you have no intention of using it when you first start out? And 25%?????

I guess I’m just annoyed as offers are three / four A stars, or two A stars one A at most top ranking universities. It feels like genuine applicants are having places taken away from them.

Sorry, rant over.

@cantkeepawayforever It’s the same as medicine or vet science though. You need an approved engineering degree to become a chartered or incorporated engineer. It’s virtually non negotiable so of course it’s vocational. It’s not the same as maths and has a very clear path to be a professional engineer.

The DD here should look at a variety of universities and F1 is what everyone wants and automotive engineers too. It’s ludicrously competitive but other car makers exist! There’s always going to be jobs. Imperial isn’t the only great engineering university either. Southampton and Bristol plus Sheffield are very good.

Some courses at Imperial have way over 51% international students. Others don’t but the overall figure isn’t helpful.

Op you do realise that a lot of people struggle to gain their perfect job out of uni don't you in the field they studied I . There's far more people studying that jobs available for graduates. I think it's a little naive to expect her to land a perfect job straight out of uni. I think many graduates are struggle for any job currently

I read Engineering having very much gone into it due to a passion about aerospace (though I actually did a general degree, specialising in 3rd and 4th year).
Turned out I was bloody awful at anything design related, but after taking a module in Project Management, I felt that was my calling - and that is the path I’ve pursued since graduating.

Engineering graduates have skill sets and approaches to problem solving that are useful in many fields - I can see why finance is a tempting career choice.

I know - which was why I gave the example of Architecture, similarly a degree ‘necessary for the career’ from which graduates from some very high tariff courses often go on to other things.

On % international students, my post was in response to a PP who gave an overall figure of 80% international students at Imperial, which is definitely not supported by the data. As I said, it will vary by course.

@WhatMe123 There’s a shortage of engineers. Not though, in F1. Other disciplines - yes. Most engineers can get jobs. Some won’t get further engineering qualifications but those that do can progress well. Back in the day, the design engineers were also the project supervisors on site. Certainly on big infrastructure projects. They knew the design better than anyone and the challenges.

I love the way that people are twisting everything I have said and turning it into something it is not.

For her, doing an aerospace degree IS a vocational course. It’s what the people working in the industry recommend to get the skills and experience to work in the field she wants to (aerodynamics). This includes Adrian Newey with whom she had a small group session a while ago. It applies to the space industry too which is another area she is interested in, as well as defence (she has also considered joining the RAF). I suggest that people actually Google the requirements for the graduate programmes at these companies and see why having 25% of the cohort of a specific degree programme she NEEDS to get the job she wants, leaving straight after graduating is a little galling.

Of course she’s not just fixated on Imperial. Her second choice right now is Southampton because their aerospace programme is superb and a hotbed for graduate recruitment. It is ranked 3rd in the U.K. behind Cambridge and Imperial but you’d probably only know that if it’s an area of specific interest. Here only about 6% do not continue in engineering on graduation.

My point being that Imperial is attracting SOME people who want to use it simply as a springboard to get into other careers before even starting.

You just have to look at the numerous chats on “The Student Room” about the subject to know people see it as a way into investment banking in particular. There are also several research papers on the subject where MIT, Harvard, Stanford, Oxbridge and Imperial are all suffering the same fate. There’s no disputing the obvious transferable skills and why engineering is attractive.

I think someone needs to create an “Engineering for Investment Banking” degree, and let those who need an aerospace degree (or tailored mechanical engineering degree) for a job take more advantage of the cutting edge research.

You're just being silly. It's down to the university to pick the best applicants, and it's down to industry to ensure they train and attract the best people

they've still received an excellent education in critical thinking which will stand them in good stead for their finance career

Nobody is saying that your daughter cannot treat this as a vocational course - just that you cannot compel every other student to consider it as a purely vocational course throughout and beyond their 4 years of study.

It’s also worth considering that some will choose Imperial specifically as it is in London, but may find as they approach graduation that their choice is between leaving London for a ‘course related career’ or needing to take a different job that will enable them (financially and in terms of employer location) to stay in London.

The only comment needed.

@RatherBeOnVacation The universities won’t care! There’s no suffering the same fate! What there is is a lack of engineers. But not at the top end with well known recruiters. It’s more middle people who leave as well as grads never attempting to be engineers. It’s been like this for decades though! DH graduated in the 70s. Same then. Numerate people do a variety of jobs.

How many rocket scientists do we actually need though? Is sending rockets off into the stratosphere really a good use of the planets resources? At least the bankers are creating wealth from nothing to help pay for it.

Yes happens a lot. Money in finance is a big draw, plus engineering grads are strong at maths.

My point being that Imperial is attracting SOME people who want to use it simply as a springboard to get into other careers before even starting.

So what?

As an academic involved in admissions, I have a public & ethical duty to be open, fair, and transparent. I want the best students for my course.

I do not do this by reading applicants' minds to find those who are "genuine" nor by casting the runes to determine what applicants will do in 5 years' time, on graduation.

Oh, and BTW Adrian Newey went to Southampton. But he's one of a kind.

Are you seriously saying knowledge must only be given to those that intend to use it in a specific way when they are 17?

In my DS’s view - aerospace/aeronautical degrees are really just Maths degrees, and he’s doing one. He does want to be an engineer but many of his year are interested in Finance. In doing so, they will be using key content of the degree. It’s not like studying music and then becoming a accountant.

Also, just to help, because I can see you have a bit of tunnel vision here, the ratio of applicants to places of 10:1 isn't at all unusual for a sought after course (or job, indeed).

I also think you may want to reflect on the amount of information you have provided about your daughter in this post. I would always recommend amending a considerable number of details. Hopefully you have.

I’ll tell you something which might blow your mind…a significant number of nursing students these days are doing the course so they can go into private aesthetics afterwards. I guess you could argue being a self employed aesthetician is a “nurse” but they’ve no intention of working in the nhs, looking after sick people, etc.

They are not only taking up spaces on a degree but also using taxpayers money for their NHS learning support fund payments, but I get they’re entitled to do this.

Yes it always has been. My husband studied this back in 2003 and loads of his friends went into finance roles. He didn't but he only worked in aerospace for a year and moved on to another field of engineering, aerospace is just a long forgotten thing he studied once but he got a great career from it. A degree is a starting point and more about where it can take you than the end goal.

But they would have to continue to do some practice as a registered nurse to maintain their professional registration? Or does aesthetics count?

Did you really not know that the finance industry recruits STEM graduates? Are you equally outraged if someone studies PPE and then becomes a lawyer rather than a politician, philosopher, or economist?

It counts. Must admit if I wasn’t such a frazzled old bat I’d be tempted to go into it myself but don’t think I’d be the best advert 🤣. Good money to be made though.

They don’t maintain their qualifications. Injecting Botox isn’t registered by anyone. Designing a bridge - you might need to be a chartered engineer. Public safety as opposed to solo risk.

I wouldn't be so sure about that.

My son is studying General Engineering in Cambridge, has been specialising in computer engineering in his final 2 years. He'd also had offers from aerospace engineering from Imperial and Southampton.

He went in all full of enthusiasm, joined the space society, had entered competitions in sixth form and got the world final etc, really was into the idea of working in the space industry, but sadly in this country (UK) the opportunities just aren't there. He would have loved to work at NASA but it's very difficult (if not impossible) if you aren't a US citizen.

His enthusiasm was further dampened when he researched engineering jobs in this country and saw how much lower they pay compared to other countries. Hence his decision to specialise in computer engineering. He already has an amazing grad job offer in that field with one year of university to go so thinks he made the right decision to take the path he has.

Until they can increase engineers' pay in this country to match other countries then I think it's a myth that it's a lucrative field for most, and the most talented engineering graduates will be in demand in other related fields for much higher salaries. It's no surprise they go where the money is when they've done such a very difficult degree. They want properly rewarding for their talent and hard work, or else if working for passion only in a niche area then the jobs have to be there.