Dropping 4th A level to maximise grades for uni

[MiniMidiMaxi]

DS is starting y13, currently doing Maths, Further Maths, Physics and Economics. He seems to be finally settling on Engineering as the subject he wants to study at uni (he knew he wanted to do some kind of applied maths, just struggled to work out what specifically). He’s predicted three A stars and an A in Economics. School are suggesting he consider dropping Economics - because he only needs three A levels for uni offers, and to maximise the chances of getting A stars, and because he has quite a lot of extra curricular stuff going on this year.

Any downsides to doing so? I can see why they are suggesting it, but I find it a bit frustrating that the ‘system’ seems to prefer maximising marks to get A stars over the learning to be gained from the extra subject.

No.

my DS did similar in order to maximise his grades.

he actually dropped further maths as he was going for med. he did study some of the material independently but didn’t do the exam.

When I was at school no one did 4 a levels. There were some very bright stars who did very well in their three, but no one did 4.

What's the benefit to 4 over 3?

If it's just for breadth and learning then he can read around the subject and follow materials without having to add in the exams and revision.

Have you looked at the entry requirements for the course and universities he would like to go to. Do they need 3 A stars?

I think the college is right that universities look at 3 A levels and higher grades open more doors. Plus predicted grades tend to be optimistic.

I think you are right that its a shame a star is prioritised over breadth but has he looked at an epq on an economics topic to replace the A level.

I’d look at the courses he’s interested in and their entry requirements. I get what you’re saying re broader learning but in life sometimes we have to play the game. Most uni courses I looked at with my DC a year ago said they didn’t take a fourth A level into account, so he could miss out on the place he wanted if he puts his energy into four A levels and doesn’t get the grades he needs for the three. Many schools don’t let them do four so I think it’s seen as fairer to judge on 3, as well as workload.
whatever he decides help him make a well informed choice, maybe emailing the courses he’s interested in for advice. You don’t want him feeling you pressured him into doing four and blaming you if it doesn’t work out. And he needs his own motivation for the work load.
Having said all that, for kids who are good at maths the maths and further maths is seen as not too heavy a workload, but schools/colleges that support 4 if it includes maths + further maths usually get them to take the maths A level at the end of y12.

My DD dropped FM to maximise grades and it worked. Drop the subject which isn't needed for the desired University course.

I’m used to further maths being a 4th A level rather than being treated as one in its own right, but I know that’s changed. It seems more typical to drop FM as the fourth, but that obvs doesn’t make sense for him. Economics is definitely his weaker subject.

Imperial is likely to be the most aspirational option he considers (though he’s not sure about London) - they might ask for 3 A stars, other places it will be Maths that is most important.

His school guard their reliability on predicted grades quite strongly - though I have some concerns about how high the grade boundaries seem to be getting in Maths and FM!

Thanks all.

I think 90% of A level students that start on 4 A levels drop down to three. Honestly, it’s a lot of work to get A*s in three subjects, let alone a 4th.

I would drop Economics for all the reasons you have outlined.

DS did exactly the same A-levels as your son and he did finish all 4 of them. I was glad he kept up the Economics (which involves a lot of essay-writing and critical thinking) even though he studied Maths at uni, so would have been fine to drop it actually.

I felt it was good to have a 4th subject, just in case one of the papers in the other 3 went badly. However, he did one subject (Maths) at the end of Y12 and the other 3 at the end of Y13. That's the way his school taught it. It would be a lot of exams (maybe 12?) in the summer of Y13 if your son does all 4 at that time!

DS also did four but school crammed Maths into the first year and Further Maths into the second year so he only sat three in his final year.

@MiniMidiMaxi my son did the same subjects and is about to start an engineering course at uni. His school (a selective grammar) would have allowed him to drop FM, but not Economics. That's because many students struggle with the pace they taught maths at (two maths A levels in 1.5 timetabling slots). They want their able mathematicians to mitigate any risk of not getting Astar in ordinary maths.

If he could have dropped Economics then he may have done, but I'm glad he didn't because the learning is useful for life. He has definitely become more interested in current affairs on the back of it.The perfect solution would have been to go the the lessons, but not having to study for the exam, but of of course that wouldn't have been allowed. 🙂

One of the Civil Engineering departments we visited (UCL) said they favoured students with a range of skills beyond maths and physics - they said being successful in engineering requires teams if people with creative skills, financial awareness, historical context, etc etc, so they welcomed a broad subject base (and didn't need further maths).

When was that @PaddingtonBlah? Way back in the 1980s some (including me) did 4 A Levels plus 2 S Levels.

I would be careful. Not all courses/universities see maths and further maths as 2 independent A levels or they didn’t a few years back. My son’s school would not have recommended this.

Further maths will help with his degree so I wouldn't advise dropping that. On the flip side achieving an A* in it will be very difficult - would he receive offers or be accepted with 2 A*'s in maths and physics and an A or B in FM if he dropped Economics?

@Surroundyourselfwiththerightpeopleit has changed. Even Oxbridge accepts Maths, FM and one other subject.
OP it seems a no brainer. If he loves math and will get an excellent grade in both drop economics.

HI, OP -

I am a former STEM admissions tutor. My School is high tariff, in the tier just below COWI.

I completely agree with the School’s advice. Admissions tutors want to see what you can do at your best, and three A stars trump two A stars and two As. Imperial may be something of an exception in that they may make both offers to an applicant take four A levels.

There was indeed a time when some degree programmes counted DS’ remaining subjects as something like 2.5 A levels. A few degree programmes at LSE were explicit about this. But those days are gone.

Some Cambridge colleges may want four A levels in some subjects if the large majority of pupils at the school take four but I know, from RL and this Board, of a number of Cambridge STEM students with the three exam combination you list.

I take @tringalung ’s point about appreciating well rounded students; most of us do. But Economics is DS’ weakest subject so I am not sure it really applies to him.

Although very few will make a three A star offer, a number now do tiered offers. Having top PGs may gain a applicant early offers, which does make life easier.

The FM angle mentioned a couple of times is outdated - it's very much a subject in its own right now and not the obvious one to drop if he's doing well at it. In general, I'd totally agree that three A levels is enough and all that most unis will consider. However as you mentioned Imperial, that's the one uni that did mention 4 A levels on open day this year - not as a prerequisite at all, but that they do take it into account, whereas other places explicitly say they don't. So if he is deadset on Imperial, then it might make a difference. What I don't get at this point, is what the problem is if he's sincerely predicted 3 A stars and an A. It's not like he needs 4 A stars, the fourth A is fine. Is what they're really saying that he probably won't get those marks so needs to do three to achieve A stars? The real problem there is the over-predicting.

If he does decide to continue 4 to A level then some places e.g. Bath and Sheffield will give a slightly lower offer on the other 3 if B is achieved in Further Maths. It's a shame that AS levels aren't part of the November exam series and he could get credit for the work he had done so far then drop it.

As far as I know only medical schools view them as one subject.

My ds did these exact same a levels. But he was applying for economics instead. He stuck with all 4

Just adding to my previous post to say that both my sons did these subjects. When they started, they didn't know what they wanted to do at uni, but the four subjects helped them explore their aptitudes and interests. My eldest loved stats best in maths, and so ended up doing economics and becoming an actuary. My DS2 loved mechanics best in maths, and so ended up doing engineering. This is one reason why it's a good idea to do 4 subjects - to keep options open. The old 'AS' model seemed optimum, and of course private schools often do the IB for breadth, but educating for breadth is unfortunately viewed as too expensive by the DfE for all but a few.

Universities have to only accept 3, because many schools now only offer 3, but we have thrown the baby out with the bathwater in my view.

DS wasn't sure between a career in the physical sciences or the social sciences. He chose economics in the end and read it as the LSE.

My DS stuck with four and regretted it. He luckily got a Cambridge offer based on the best three, but had friends whose offers were contingent on As in all four, or 3 a plus an A. (More competitive courses I guess). DS ended up only getting a B for his fourth (physics) though had been predicted a “solid A” at the end of Y12, and says in hindsight he had way way way too much to do as also had music, sport, a job (which he gave up) and other jobs within school. So his advice would be to go with the three. Especially as predicted grades really are a prediction of how a student could do on a good day, not a guarantee of how they will do.

This is simply not true for subjects such as engineering, physics, maths.

Thanks for the specific flags about Imperial, Bath and Sheffield requirements, those are all possibilities for him so he’ll need to work through the permutations and probabilities if he does 3 v 4.