Dropping 4th A level to maximise grades for uni

[MiniMidiMaxi]

DS is starting y13, currently doing Maths, Further Maths, Physics and Economics. He seems to be finally settling on Engineering as the subject he wants to study at uni (he knew he wanted to do some kind of applied maths, just struggled to work out what specifically). He’s predicted three A stars and an A in Economics. School are suggesting he consider dropping Economics - because he only needs three A levels for uni offers, and to maximise the chances of getting A stars, and because he has quite a lot of extra curricular stuff going on this year.

Any downsides to doing so? I can see why they are suggesting it, but I find it a bit frustrating that the ‘system’ seems to prefer maximising marks to get A stars over the learning to be gained from the extra subject.

OP If you look here on the Imperial website and go to Five Year Undergrad statistics you can download a spreadsheet that shows the A Levels results across the last 5 years for each student per subject. So you can see whether the majority of students have 3 or 4 A levels on the courses you are looking at . (There are a few with 5 or6 A stars!)

https://www.imperial.ac.uk/admin-services/strategic-planning/statistics/transparency-information/

DS school encouraged dropping one in the final year to get highest grades EXCEPT if one was FM, in that case FM was the only one that could be dropped.

Play the game wish I did I did 4.5 bloody a-levels ridiculous got two As and 3 Bs should have just focussed on my 3. This was in 1999.

We’re looking at engineering (mechanical or general). Cambridge, imperial, Bath, Manchester (for some reason) ask for 2 A stars and one A. There are then a lot that ask for one A star and two A. I didn’t see any that asked for 3 A stars, though it’s likely you’d be more likely to get an offer in the first place if that was your predicted grade.

A few of them say they are likely to make lower offers if you have 4 a levels - eg Sheffield general eng is Astar A A, or A A A B if 4 alevels.
Bath say they’d offer Astar Astar A, or Astar A A B, or Astar Astar B B, if 4 alevels including FM, with restrictions on which have to be the a star. (Look at their website for proper details, there’s a few caveats).

So basically I didn’t see any where the actual offers were three a stars. All of them were v happy for FM to be one of three a levels - maths and physics and as much of those as possible is most desirable. Most offered one Astar and two A.

Obv his predicted grades are what they are, but further maths is quite a beast to get an a star in. I take it he hasn’t sat the maths a level yet? (Some schools do it a year early if fm is taken as well).

Keeping 4 A levels puts them in a small category as the vast majority take 3 A levels. Even if they start with 4 a lot of schools make them drop down to 3 for year 13.

Both my children did 4 A levels with the 4th being further maths. It shows they can handle a 4 subject workload which can go in their favour when applying against other applicants who have 3.

It did also mean one RG university offered their standard entry on 3 A levels and a drop grade on 4 subject grades for Ds.

Personally at this stage I would probably encourage him to keep his 4 A level options open but with a view to review it by Christmas. It does affect their UCAS though so if he applies with 4 he would have to inform them of a drop to 3.

I agree it’s a shame the system doesn’t support students learning more rather than collecting high grades.

But for your DS, if continuing Economics is liable to impact his ability to get As in the three others - the perfect trio for top engineering degrees - then he should drop it.

agree with others it’s a shame AS was done away with. My dd was pre-reforms,started for (m, fm, physics and CS) and dropped the latter after AS on advice from her school to maximise grades in the other 3. She did also do a relevant ‘artefact’ EPQ. Got an offer from Cambridge - A in physics and FM, A in maths.

There can be concern re demonstrating capacity for workload if schools do the maths in year 12, fm in year 13 approach and so only sit 2 a levels at that point (its on the Cambridge website somewhere…not sure if re engineering or maths). But that’s clearly not the case for your DS.
Of course if he’s aiming high he should be doing some supracurriculars to demonstrate engagement with his subject - you’ve said he’s doing a lot of extracurriculars so hopefully that’s covered.

One thing he might consider is self teaching some extra maths modules (if that’s still relevant in the reformed a levels) - DD taught herself an extra mechanics module. Knowing as much of that before starting the tougher Eng. degrees can only make it a bit easier to hit the ground running.

Cambridge may ‘only’ ask for 2A and an A but as with my DDs offer they’ll most likely specify the stars are for Physics and FM. So in reality most will have 3A .
(not sure why you say ‘for some reason’ re Manchester…afaik their engineering courses are highly rated and the uni overall ranks significantly higher than bath.)

It was pretty uncommon though unless you were doing multiple maths and physics or double music. DH actually did 7 A levels but 3 were maths one was physics and another general studies

I teach Economics and I think that's the right decision. He's had a grounding in the subject and can probably take a module in it at university if he wishes (A level Economics and university year 1 modules are not dissimilar because not all schools even offer A level Economics).

In Economics terms, it comes down to opportunity cost - he is using up around 10 hours a week on the 4th subject that could otherwise be used on the other 3.

Was this when you did AS levels, so you essentially sat 5 half A levels in year 12 and 5 half A levels in year 13?

I doubt that many school and college curricula could fit 5 subjects into the timetable.

DD started with 4 and achieved AABB at the end of year 12. She then dropped psychology and upped her 2 B grades to A grades.

Universities want quality over quantity.

I was interested in the Manchester entry requirements as it’s my favourite (and my original home) city. But for mech eng, it ranks 13th, 14th and 27th on complete, times and guardian uni guides, which is obv still v well rated but a fair bit below a lot of other unis offering Astar A A, with across the board higher rankings. Bath is 5th, 6th and 2nd for mech eng. and Cambridge and imperial are higher.
And overall Manchester is 28th, 27th, 31st whereas bath is 8th, 8th and 7th.
I was a little surprised too and I don’t set too much store by all these tables, but it was looking like a bit of an outlier.

Hi, @Talipesmum -

The Guardian league (uniquely, I think) table incorporates NSS ratings.

A few years ago Manchester introduced a new administrative layer between Faculty level and former School level. Schools became Departments and the new School level comprises a set of Departments. So the Faculty of Engineering and Science, I think it is, now has a School of Engineering and a School of Science instead of a School of Mech Eng, a School of Physics, etc.

Student services and many services for academic staff are administered through the (new) School level, centrally. It has become very impersonal. My friends there and, they say, their students, don’t like it at all.

No, I wish my daughter had dropped one. She did 3 STEM and English Lit. And an EPQ. Her final grades were just about good enough for her first choice but it was a risk. She got a reduced offer - the 4 Alevels may have contributed to that, tbf. As well as her performance at interview.

I think it depends where he wants to go. A lot of applicants for Oxbridge and Imperial Engineering will do 4 A-levels and be expected to meet crazy high offers. It's very competitive... if the majority of kids at his school start on four and/or continue with four, and your DS drops a subject, these universities will know about it. Bluntly, it won't work in his favour.

But if he's looking at less 'full on' places and currently struggling with workload, then it's probably 'better' to get, say, 3 a-stars over 2 a-stars and an A and a B.

2 of my DDs friends sat 4 a levels in 2024. Both had been predicted As and Bs. Both got Bs and Cs. They both blame it on having sat 4 exams.

If it was engineering chemistry or another science would be relevant to the field. Economics, less so.

No it was 1999 I did 4 full a-level and an AS Level!! And yes it fit in my school sixth form curriculum. And yes I wish I had not. Thankfully I still had the grades for my Redbrick course AAB and then of course the extras. Wish I’d just done 3 and got my 3 As. I was predicted As across the board.

Just to offer a counter opinion - at my DS' school they all start on four. I think about 2/3 of the year continue with four. My DS did this - as did most of his mates - they were all fine and did very well in their A-levels. Workload didn't seem unmanageable tbh.

They are super driven/academic though...

At DD's school there were clearly pupils who would have struggled with 4. DD started with 4 but struggled with the workload, so she dropped to 3 after AS levels (the last year the school did them). It meant that she banked an A though.

I did that combination. My offers were based on maths/fm/physics, so once those were in I continued to attend economics but didn't do any homework (I told my teacher it was bottom priority, and he didn't bother chasing me for any), so it put no pressure on me beyond using a few hours in school I might not have used productively anyway. In fact, I got an A despite that, and it probably played a part when I missed my offer and got accepted. If the predictions are "most likely" rather than "might on a good day", then maybe stick with it.

Thanks all. He’s decided to go ahead and drop Economics. It may well mean he loses a safety net, but he isn’t so concerned with a super aspirational university like Imperial or Cambridge, he’d rather build extra curricular and work experience than get the extra A level. Just need to make sure he’s putting the extra time into the subjects he has left!

Good news, OP. Best wishes to DS