To Epq or not to Epq…?

[Cornflowerblue5]

Youngest DC is about to start 6th form and is moving schools (state). Has to start with 4 A levels (non stem) but plans to drop one by half term as no interest in 4th option. For context 9x9 and 1x8 at gcse and likely to be aiming for competitive unis (not Oxbridge) but no idea what subject.

New school is unusual I think in not insisting on an EPQ or core maths alongside 3 A levels? Head of 6th form actually said to us that they often find top students do better doing their own supercurriculars for PS rather than investing in time needed for epq because so much it is about the process?

So my question is, would a student with those gcse grades be unwise to ‘only’ apply to uni with 3 A levels (aiming for high grades) . Will they be disadvantaged if they don’t do an epq because so many others offer one?

I do realise that the EPQ has value as preparation for uni if done as a mini dissertation, but I’m not convinced it is worth the time it takes up (DC would also have geography coursework) and I wonder if it is better to invest that time in the core subjects ?

thanks for your advice

Can only speak of my own DCs experience re EPQ. DC went to highly regarded state sixth form college where EPQ was compulsory. If doing non STEM essay subjects students were strongly discouraged from doing a dissertation. The EPQ is all about the research, citation and much less about the final product itself. He made a film. It was a slog and Oxbridge and majority of Russell Group unis are not at all interested in EPQ. Nevertheless, actually doing it properly and achieving a good grade is the best approach. They did the EPQ in year 12.

Majority of students at the sixth form did not do 4 A Levels. Unless the fourth A level is further maths or a language for those planning to study abroad it's not worth it.

It depends. EPQ can give a bit of for security for offers - for some subjects the uni offers can be - say AAA, or AAB+EPQ. A friend's daughter had that sort of offer for psychology at a Russel Group Uni - and it took a bit of pressure off as EPQ grade was known before she took the actual A-level exams.

But generally - 3 A-levels is all he really needs to apply. Even at the most competitive private schools kids are strongly encouraged (=pretty much told to) drop their 4th A-level during the first year of Six Form, unless they are taking Further Maths, or applying to the US universities.

EPQ is worthwhile if they are worried about grades but likely with your child's gcse grades they should be OK. Our twins did not do EPQs and had offers from Warwick, Bath, Nottingham, Exeter, Loughborough, Birmingham etc.

It doesn’t really help with uni applications though some unis do drop a grade if a student has an A in an EPQ. However if closely related to their degree choice then the research can be considered beneficial for places like Oxbridge (I know you say no interest) or other places that interview.
I don’t see the point of starting with four A levels if one is going to be dropped in a few weeks -
my DD went to a selective independent and they were fairly adamant that four A levels were NOT a good idea unless one was FM. They were quite big on EPQs but they were not required. And I don’t even know what core maths is.
She did do an EPQ. It had nothing to do with her A levels or eventual degree (she’s at Durham now), but she did it because she wanted to. She designed, illustrated, edited and published a magazine. She formed a club and got the senior school students to contribute articles. It was an incredible experience completely out of her comfort zone. It was a serious magazine with several articles needing to pass the legal scrutiny. No teacher was involved.
Sometimes something is valuable in and of itself without needing a tangible benefit.
But as for getting in to uni, three stellar A level grades is what really counts, and if an EPQ risks that then don’t do it.

imo EPQs can be worth doing as an end in themself, if (and only if) it’s something the student wants to do and if the process is a useful learning experience. DD did an ‘artefact ‘ - designing and building a robot - the ‘project planning ‘ aspect was quite sensible and she had access to school facilities which she wouldn’t have had if it hadn’t been as an EPQ. It was essentially irrelevant for uni applications - competitive courses inc Cambridge. Only the lowest tariff one offered a grade reduction for an A* on the EPQ.
They’re more likely to be useful for lower tariff unis using ucas points than the ones requiring high A level grades, I think.

The crucial thing in what the head said is the part about their own Supercurriculars being more useful - IF they’re doing other things outside of school that’s great. If they’re not then it may be that the EPQ could fill a gap.

At my DCs' school, EPQs were done in Y13 with results and experiences being very patchy because of time pressures etc; I can imagine EPQs done in Y12 might be better.

By contrast, the school did very successfully encourage large numbers of social science and humanities students to take Core Maths in Y12 with good results, quite a few reduced offers and the benefits of maintaining and enhancing quantitative skills.

If your DC is taking Geog, then the NEA element provides a good opportunity to develop their research skills, albeit with the constraint that the topic has to be directly linked to that subject.

My daughter did an EPQ as she did 3 STEM A levels and she wanted to keep up writing skills and researched and wrote about an ethics based subject in biomedical sciences. A few universities gave her a lower offer (Bath and Warwick as I recall) and she loved the subject she wrote about, she was able to talk about it in her personal statement and she has been asked about it in job interviews as it remained a topical subject.

As your DC is doing essay-based A levels and geography which includes coursework, the EPQ might not be so useful unless they have something they particularly want to explore. Do they have the option to take core maths? That could be more useful.

I should add my daughter was at 6th form during the pandemic lockdowns so she had more free time to devote to it!

If you're talking uni entrance then I would say the EPQ and a 4th A level (unless FM) are a distraction and it's best to focus on getting the best possible A level results for 3 subjects and a good personal statement (which may or may not be read by the uni).

We were glad Dd did hers as she unexpectedly dropped a grade but had an A in her EPQ and still got in to her super competitive RG uni she had set her heart on. We don’t know whether the EPQ A tipped the balance but it may have helped.

Some universities accept lower a levels with a good epq I think Sheffield. Plus they can do something they are interested in. Dd2 starting year 12 will definitely do one too.

At dds school they were done in year 12 so “out of the way” before a levels got really serious.

Not sure if they are that useful. DD had similar GCSEs and 3 A stars predicted and no epq and got economics offers fine including Oxford. The free time allowed her to work in her job more and save money.

Both my DDs did EPQs and I think it was a useful experience but their school got them done and submitted in year 12 so they had their grades, which were good, before starting year 13, which I think is by far the best way to do it and in their case gave them a nice boost.

It can make a difference to offers - one of my elder DD’s offers went from AAB to ABB because of her EPQ result - but it didn’t affect the other offers and it made no difference to my younger DD’s offers. I hadn’t heard of Core Maths until very recently but that sounds interesting.

core maths seems like a bloody good idea and it’s nice to hear that it is being recognised in uni offers - I’m not sure if they all all make that (and whether they factor in EPQs ) clear enough on their websites.
Of course if kids have some idea of what they want to do at uni they can email a few admissions tutors before making their 6th form choices - my dd did this and had some very helpful replies.

Thanks everyone for feedback so far. This has reinforced my gut feeling that the epq is not worth doing unless there is something that dc is enthusiastic about focusing on and would enjoy the process. I think a lot of it would be worked on over the summer when the geography NEA is also a priority. I was just worried that ‘only’ doing the 3 A levels might look bad but it’s good to hear that’s not really the case.

@Menotests yes core maths is an option and taken in year 12. We had looked into it but again weren’t sure it was worth the extra work during yr12 mocks (which are of course impt for predicted grades). I agree it could be relevant for geography and social sciences but at the same time dc has a high 8 for maths gcse and I imagine will cope with the maths elements fine without it. I am aware of course that some take core maths as alternative to a mandatory epq.

DS did geography a level and got good EPQ type experience - planning, research, referencing etc- from doing the coursework (NEA).

He didn’t do an EPQ and I think his time was far better spent working to get decent grades on his a levels then an EPQ which may have got him a one grade reduction on some of his offers. He also got a part time job which has been so great for his confidence and social skills - good for the uni applications as well.

1000% EPQ.. I’ve been through this a few times and offers were reduced for some bc of the EPQ .. plus it gets them actively studying so strengthens that muscle plus if you do need to go through clearing it strenghthens their case .

DS did an EPQ and really enjoyed it - but he knew exactly what he wanted to do at uni/as a career and made it relevant to that. He was also doing non writing A-level subjects so it was really important because he needed to change his writing style from GCSE English Language! It also got him reduced offers but more importantly for him it was great on his cv and helped him get his degree apprenticeship.

It's probably going to be much less worthwhile if you are doing written subjects already and you also aren't sure what you want to do at uni or as a career though.

DD did 4 stem Alevels. She had exactly the same results at GCSE as your DC.8 in Eng lit. She was advised not to do an EPQ by her college due to workload,TMUA etc, but unsurprisingly for her ploughed on regardless. She made it a supracurricular topic to her her Uni subject. She was asked about it at her Cambridge interview so considered it worthwhile. Got an A star plus 3 x A* and an A at level. Really depends on if your DC can cope with workload. Also to add that she had an incredible Comp Sci teacher who proof read for her and a friend doing exactly the same alevels and EPQ( not subject obvs) for mutual support. Good luck to your DC.

"I don’t see the point of starting with four A levels if one is going to be dropped in a few weeks -"

It's much more understandable when you've seen the problem of the student who finds that they are completely out of their depth with French, or that psychology isn't at all what they thought it would be, or who really struggled to decide between chemistry and further maths and realises 6 weeks in that they made the wrong decision.

Switching A-levels once the courses have got going is pretty difficult; dropping one of the four is no problem. You could see it as wasted studying, but learning something you don't end up doing an exam in is not all bad.

I lead EPQ in my school and this year a large number of students who dropped a grade in their A levels were able to get their 1st choice uni as a result of an A star or A in EPQ.

To all the people saying that Oxbridge aren't interested in EPQ, please could you inform yourselves better. In 2016 DD1 was asked about her EPQ in her Cambridge interview as it was related to her course. Every year, students write about it in their personal statements, and after they have been interviewed at Oxbridge, I ask them if they talked about their EPQ. Around 75% do discuss it. One guy this year whose dissertation was on something in the USA was interviewed by an academic whose research interest was similar but based in Eastern Europe. They spent time comparing the 2 and the student did get an offer from that college. He missed one A level grade but his A star in EPQ got him onto that course.

To the OP, it's your DC's choice but they will be up against my lot who tend to offer either 4 A levels or 3 A levels plus EPQ as the norm. This year I also had 5 students who took 4 A levels AND the EPQ. 3 of them achieved 5 A star grades, the others got 3 plus 2 As.

EPQs have been discussed a lot on MN and it’s an interesting topic. Certainly plenty of schools do not insist on one.

A poster who I think manages the EPQ programme at their school is in favour of them, broadly, which is a view I respect. They speak of the way an EPQ will develop thinking and research skills that are very useful at uni which is a valuable asset, for sure.

ETA ahahha the poster I reference is the wise @Malbecfan who I see has posted while I was writing. I very much respect their view. Tho tbf someone could talk about the EPQ subject at Oxford interviews without actually doing the EPQ. But yes for sure it will give them a focus and that is very valuable.

But based on my experience (or that of my DC and their peers) an EPQ:

• Is not essential for any degree – no uni will ask for it or expect it
• Can drastically take time away from main A level work
• Will only lead to a dropped uni offer if an A is gained and even then only at certain unis, for certain courses

A level grades and predicted grades will always be more important than an EPQ so if these are at any risk at all then the EPQ should be dropped. Neither of my A level DC would have had time for one. If a student is very able and has plenty of spare capacity, and thinks they will benefit from the extra task/study, then it’s worth doing. But its value IMHO is no greater than undertaking super-curricular study of the subject in a less formalised way. I think the key is – will A level grades suffer?

Neither of my uni DC did and EPQ and they had offers from Warwick, Birmingham, Loughborough, Leeds, Nottingham, Sheffield.

@mondaytosunday that’s an amazing project your DD undertook! Now that will stand her in good stead – she should make sure she quotes it on her CV.

Yes… it’d probably be a good idea if most students did start with one more than they’re likely to want to end up doing. Between trying subjects not studied at gcse and the ‘jump to A level’, it’s a real shame this seems less common than it used to be. Of course pre reform there was always the option of dropping after AS, which is what my dd did with her 4th subject but even without doing an exam she’d have found it useful knowledge/skills for her degree.

An EPQ has much to recommend it, with most of the points discussed above. I would add that the experiences of more independent learning and time management are excellent preparation for university.

But what is the cost? Sure, a few good degree programmes will drop a grade with a strong EPQ result (we used to do this is a bad year, and could again). But it is much better simply to make your offer. And if the time spent on the EPQ means lesser exam results, regardless of offers, or anxiety about coping with it all, I would give it a miss.

Just focus on getting good A level grades, which he is clearly very capable of.

I have watched friends (academic peers) of my Dc do 4 A levels, EPQ , and then do less well than predicted in the exams which are the basis of any offer.