Maths vs. Economics vs?

[WhattodoSue]

My DD (about to start A-levels) is currently thinking about investment banking (which is so far from any world I would have been interested in, but it is her choice). She has a strong 9 at GCSE and an A in OCR FSMQ. She is not one of those people who is utterly brilliant at maths (hadn’t done Olympiad type stuff), but she clearly is very good at it.

She would like to consider Oxbridge, and would like to do economics, but she is also contemplating Maths (partly because she thinks she prefers Oxford and Economics and Management is so hyper competitive).

She doesn’t think she would be good enough at Maths. I have pointed out that she did extremely well at GCSE, but she dismisses that because ‘the Maths at GCSE is really easy’. I wanted to ask how brilliant at Maths she would need to be to do it at Uni (and not just at Oxbridge)? Should she be doing well on the olympiads? What other super curriculars could/should she be doing?

Just to say an enormous thank you for all of these incredibly helpful replies. My key takeaways are:

• if she doesn’t love FM A-level then a maths degree is a non-starter
• she is going to need to do practice for the tests at Oxbridge through year 12, and again, if she doesn’t enjoy that Maths won’t be for her at degree level
• Kings Maths School looks amazing
• She should look into the maths-based economics courses
• She will need to discover what her level of motivation/commitment/interest is, and it will have to be high.

Thanks to the suggestion of contacting her maths tutor, I have a very strong endorsement of her basic ability, so IF she is motivated, I feel it is with trying. I am assuming that whatever work she does will help the a-level grades so we’ll see!!!

Thanks so much! I will tell her to start looking at intern schemes. I think those will be brilliant to help her decide if it is for her. What your DS is doing sounds much more interesting to me 😁 But I have (hopefully) been unfairly influenced by ‘Industry’!!!! Which is clearly not what a parent with a child interested in investment banking wants to be watching 🤣🤦‍♀️

Thanks so much! I will tell her to start looking at intern schemes. I think those will be brilliant to help her decide if it is for her. What your DS is doing sounds much more interesting to me 😁 But I have (hopefully) been unfairly influenced by ‘Industry’!!!! Which is clearly not what a parent with a child interested in investment banking wants to be watching 🤣🤦‍♀️

university’s used to do economics and maths or maths and economics degrees if she can’t decide. They have econometrics modules in them. I don’t know if it’s offered at oxbridge. Warwick does a course called MORSE which might be of interest.

In terms of the step up, my son had A* in both Maths and Further Maths and he found the step for Engineering huge.
Maths at Cambridge is not for wimps, even if doing another subject 😂

@WhattodoSue my DS was similarly good at maths - always top at his state comp, then went to a selective sixth form where he did maths, further maths, economics & physics. This was where he learned what kind of maths he enjoyed and was good at - in his case it was statistics. He wasn't keen on pure maths, and mechanics was somewhere in between..To get into the most competitive maths departments you need love all three. Those that love mechanics tend to.lean towards engineering. Those (like my son) who love stats tend to lean towards economics and finance. My son eventually got A star in maths and an A in the other 3 subjects. He went to UCL to do Economics & Statistics and is now training to be an Actuary.

Investment banking is super-competitive and notoriously stressful so your daughter would be wise to have a back-up plan.and apply for other sectors. Her first internship/job will choose her rather than the other way round.

@WhattodoSue My DDs friend did PPE at Oxford and then joined a very old established financial advisory service company - formally called an investment bank! It’s ultra competitive of course but not impossible. This young man was a 5 A level type of person though and could cope with a high pressure job.

I think this course is for very high flyers as is maths! Nothing at Oxford is easy! Another girl we know did maths at Cambridge and is an actuary now.

Look at Oxford maths and the undergrad degrees for what further tests they want. They will probably want step and they interview. She needs to speak to the school about this. Self prep is very difficult.

Internships are usually for year 2 undergrads. Not school age dc. The universities have careers fairs and careers advisers with info. Do look for any taster days that might be available but I think they are fairly unusual.

Coming to this a bit late, but maybe still relevant. I did Cambridge Maths some time ago, and now work in maths and physics at a university.

There's no need to be doing olympiads in order to be considering mathematics as a degree. If your daughter is scoring 9 at GCSE there is no reason to think she wouldn't be good enough to do mathematics (or an adjacent maths-based subject) as a degree.

As you have already concluded, your best information will come from how well she does on the Further Mathematics curriculum and STEP Mathematics papers. This is especially true for STEP, which is much closer to the kind of maths she will encounter at university. There is a change compared to basic A-level maths, and it becomes much less about simple manipulation of expressions, and more about major ideas. She won't really know whether she likes it until she has a chance to try.

You likely know this, but the Cambridge Maths faculty have a webpage for STEP, including supporting resources, here, and there is an online STEP support programme available here. The Cambridge page includes some guidance on problem solving, a large number of past papers, and some specimen mark schemes.

If your daughter's sixth form is able to support her with STEP, so much the better. Cambridge usually try to make the point that students can self-prepare for STEP. A long time ago, my sixth form had never heard of STEP, so I did it this way, but I can't really recommend it. Working through past papers is all very well, but students need to know whether they are getting the questions right, and including the level of detail in the answers that is being looked for. If your daughter's maths tutor is able to do this for her, that would be a major help.

Cambridge also run some great girls’ STEP summer schools the summer after Y12 - my daughter did the Eve Vidalis/ Murray Edwards one but I think Trinity or St John’s do a similar one. It’s extremely informative as they live in the college for the week and have tutorials and sessions on STEP problems as if they’re undergrads!

Does she have a genuine interest in economics?

She should read a few popular economics books. Things like Freakonomics or the Armchair Economist. Amazon will then give more suggestions. A degree is far easier if you have a keen interest.

If she has she should look at the more mathematical economics degrees. Cambridge, Warwick, UCL, LSE and Imperial. All fiendishly competitive and often rejecting straight A* applicants. Indeed a decade ago, before Imperial started their degree, DS was rejected from all but LSE. (School advice, which runs counter to much MN advice was he was good enough for one of these courses but to some extent it was a lottery, so should apply to them all with a gap year and reapplication as a fall back.)

All of these will have access to really challenging maths (financial maths) courses, but also scope to take gentler ones if preferences change. DS enjoyed maths at University even though he had not been a particular star at school and went on to graduate in Econometrics and Mathematical Economics, something that LSE offer as a third year specialisation.

If she is aiming for one of these courses and finds maths straight forward, she should start with 4 A levels including FM. She can always drop back later. Three including FM is narrow and will put her at a disadvantage as would not having FM.

@SpanThatWorld I am thinking that the prep she would need to do for STEP/MAT which ever she ends up needing to do, will help determine if university maths is for her. If she enjoys it, and does well, I’m hoping that would be a good sign.

@purrfectdaze I asked her and what she loves is pure maths at the moment. She said the mechanics in the FSMQ she found the hardest bit. She said she didn’t love probability. I think she will get a better idea through her a-levels, but she is wondering about possibly doing straight maths. She is aware she will need to try and get onto some of the introductory courses the investment banks do ( @TizerorFizz you are right - the proper internships are for undergrads), and I’m hoping that will let her know if she does actually want to work in finance or not. Her Economics A-level will give her an idea about Economics.

@Messier81 thanks so much for your thoughts. That is really helpful. It is great to know about the olympiads (and a big relief). I was a bit worried about Cambridge Maths because I know an EXTREMELY bright girl who adores maths who was rejected (she is going to Oxford instead, she took a year out and re-applied). I think I read that only 15% of the course are girls. But I might have that wrong. I do think DD’s school are likely to do some preparation

@Justlurkingmostly ooohhh! That is really great to know. DD is in a private school, and so she may not be eligible. But I will tell her to have a look. It would be such a brilliant way to get an idea if she might love university maths.

@Needmoresleep she has read freakonomics, but I am not sure she is deeply fascinated at the moment. The A-level will help her to work out if she wants to do it as a degree. I totally agree she has to love it to want to do it. That is really helpful to know about the journey your DS took. I must admit, I would prefer she didn’t stay in London. It is SO expensive and things are so spread out. But that is awkward given it would rule out LSE, Imperial and UCL. If she wants to do investment banking that takes out over half of those 5 main recruitment universities (I believe).

She is going to need to see how she finds Further Maths and the different university maths entry exams, but I hope that will help her understand where her passions lie.

She is definitely going to do 4, Maths, FM and Economics are certain. She is wavering about Politics. She is going to start it, but if she doesn’t love it, she is going to swap to English Lit or History. She is positive she wants an essay subject.

History opens more doors than politics at A level. Both PPE & Econ & Mgmt at Oxford like students to have taken history & maths. You don't need economics A level either to study economics at university.

I agree about history.

The economics A level syllabus was revamped a few years back and Universities like the new version better. The previous one was pretty dull and threw out some odd results. Taking A level Economics allows an applicant to both discover if they enjoy the subject and confirm to the University that they have an interest.

@Dearover and @Needmoresleep that is positive! DD decided that although her English lit grade was extremely good, she was more interested in History (she did also get an 9 in that, just) and so she is now doing that, with Maths, FM and Economics. She is quite excited about them. I will be excited if she continues to be excited!!

@WhattodoSue

I was a bit worried about Cambridge Maths because I know an EXTREMELY bright girl who adores maths who was rejected (she is going to Oxford instead, she took a year out and re-applied). I think I read that only 15% of the course are girls. But I might have that wrong.

I do not have any special knowledge or insight, but I have also seen some internet chat about that 15% figure. You can find admission statistics for the 2024 cycle here, and for the 2023 cycle here. They show some limited recovery:

2024 Mathematics
Applications: Women 25.9% Men 74.1%
Offers: Women 29.5% Men 70.5%
Acceptances: Women 22.7% Men 77.3%

2023 Mathematics
Applications: Women 26.3% Men 73.7%
Offers: Women 28.6% Men 71.4%
Acceptances: Women 19.4% Men 80.6%

The primary gap (not unique to Cambridge, but very painfully visible here) is that women are already put off from applying. We see this at my university also (at least for physics where I have more direct knowledge), where we have been unable to significantly increase applications from female applications, despite regular efforts.

Getting back to Cambridge, offers are roughly comparable to applications. But there is another significant drop in converting offers to acceptances. There is nowhere near a comparable attainment gap in A-level maths outcomes, so this is perhaps attributable to STEP.

I do think DD’s school are likely to do some preparation

This is likely the point where help is going to be most effective. I have taught the Y1 maths courses for our physics students for several years. Students often arrive from A-level with the expectation that questions will fit into a few standard templates. STEP questions are not like this; they typically need students to link up knowledge over a wider range. Sometimes seeing how to get started can be quite challenging.

If a student is able to tackle STEP questions straight away, there is no problem. But otherwise, I think it must be a demoralising experience. If the school, or another tutor, is able to show your daughter how to get started, and demonstrate that she really is able to tackle the questions, that may be a big factor in getting over the initial speed bump.

The Murray Edwards STEP summer school is here. The other one is run between Trinity (usually very strong in mathematics) and Christ's (my old college) and is here (Trinity) or here (Christ's). Unfortunately, for this one, she seems not to be eligible if she is at a fee-paying school.

@Messier81 that is really interesting. As you say, the issue seems to be somewhere in the STEP exam. The really brilliant girl did the summer school you mentioned. I would guess that motivated her decision to apply to Cambridge. It blows my mind she didn’t get a place.

I realised that my DD’s school doesn’t do much prep. And I think that will be actually hugely important for her to try and work out if Maths is for her. I very much take your point that she will need guidance on how to approach the questions. My experience of undergraduates (totally different subject) is that they come in expecting clear guidance and content boundaries to enable them to answer the questions. They struggle with the problem solving to work out how to answer, and to work out how to explore resources to work out what they do (and don’t) need to know.

In terms of the prep, thanks to @PacificState I did find Kings Maths School. They do an after school session as outreach, and I think she is going to apply. It looks amazing although she may not meet enough broadening participation criteria to get offered a place. She will try. She will also try the Murray Edward’s summer school. As you said, she doesn’t qualify for the other one. I have my hopes pinned on those at the moment, so will come up with a plan B if that fails!