Maths vs. Economics vs?

[WhattodoSue]

My DD (about to start A-levels) is currently thinking about investment banking (which is so far from any world I would have been interested in, but it is her choice). She has a strong 9 at GCSE and an A in OCR FSMQ. She is not one of those people who is utterly brilliant at maths (hadn’t done Olympiad type stuff), but she clearly is very good at it.

She would like to consider Oxbridge, and would like to do economics, but she is also contemplating Maths (partly because she thinks she prefers Oxford and Economics and Management is so hyper competitive).

She doesn’t think she would be good enough at Maths. I have pointed out that she did extremely well at GCSE, but she dismisses that because ‘the Maths at GCSE is really easy’. I wanted to ask how brilliant at Maths she would need to be to do it at Uni (and not just at Oxbridge)? Should she be doing well on the olympiads? What other super curriculars could/should she be doing?

Is she taking FM as well? I know no unis ask for it for a maths degree (bc not all sixth forms offer it), but the majority of students will have it at the higher-ranked unis for sure.

To answer your question about how good she would need to be – that depends on the uni obvs. if she is thinking of COWI then yes she will need to be gaining very high grades. What do her maths teachers think?

Further maths is recommended for some Economics degrees too. Did she find FSMQ easy? There are entrance tests for maths and sometimes economics e.g. TMUA, MAT and STEP so worth looking at those after a couple of terms.

She is doing Maths, FM, Economics and Politics (she isn’t interested in PPE). She didn’t find FM particularly difficult. She actually did it outside school (long story) and I think she had a very good tutor for it. He did say she was very capable and picked it up quickly. She didn’t work hugely hard, and tended to be very quick with her work. Before doing it she wasn’t very confident in her maths ability.

Maths teacher here - If she’s thinking of Maths at Oxbridge she must do Further Maths as the standard of maths is so high, and the tests (MAT for Oxford and STEP for Cambridge) are very tough. Can she start with 4 A-levels and if it gets too much work then drop the FM while realising Oxbridge maths isn’t for her.
Maths is very difficult at Oxbridge and if her school offers FM they will want her to take it.
Probably not as necessary for Economics even at very good places.

Actually I would suggest FM is a good idea for econ as well – economics @WhattodoSue is having a moment of high popularity and studying econ at unis like LSE or UCL or even somewhere such as Leeds is very competitive, so if FM gives you an edge it’s a good plan. Again, IME (anecdotal but still valid, ie based on a number of YP) a lot of students applying to higher-ranked unis will have FM A level.

She’s not wrong that GCSE is really easy. Even A Level maths is not hard - it’s only really Further Maths and the Oxbridge exams that properly discriminate some ‘real’ mathematical ability. I didn’t make the Oxbridge grades, but did get a first in Maths from the next tier.

For investment banking, she will need to work at building an investment banking worthy CV from now. Oxbridge would make it easier, but it will still need the right extra-curricular demonstrating the ‘drive’ they look for.

Maths at Oxbridge or Economics at Cambridge will almost always need Maths and FM A levels and at least A star A star A as predicted grades. E&M the offer grades are A star AA and it must include Maths, around 40% do FM but its not needed for E&M. PPE, the vast majority have A level maths, in DDs year (DD is reading E&M at Oxford) only 4 don't. PPE and E&M can share Economics tutorials.

I would start with those A levels and see how she gets on with them - around 50% of people drop FM at DDs school, it was the most common A level to drop. I would go with the subject she enjoys the most and does best at. Consider admissions tests, TSA for E&M is a very different test to TMUA and very little maths in TSA. Worth visiting a variety of colleges at both Oxford and Cambridge.

Investment banking can be tough to get into and you also be a tough personality to stick it out.

Thanks all for your thoughts. I wasn’t clear in my first message, sorry! She is definitely doing FM A-level, she is planning to do 4 A-levels. She will have to work harder than she did for GCSEs, but I think she does have the potential to do well at them. What she is concerned about is the potential step up if she does a maths degree (instead of economics).

Can I ask, what sort of prep should she do for the Oxbridge exams? Am I right in assuming they are subject specific (feels like a really stupid question)?

Re Olympiads I don't think its necessary to have done them to get to Oxbridge Maths (my DD did them and the UKMT summer school but don't think it made any difference) but if you have got them I think it can help with the thinking on your feet type format of interview questions. The maths interviews are incredibly high level maths, E&M the interview has A level maths.

Cambridge Maths does have 50% of offers not met after STEP / A level results so that can be hard - thinking you are off there and sometimes people being told then you are not. For E&M I think its 97% meet offers.

Re entrance exams its past papers really. The TSA didn't take DD long but it worth trying the tests before you apply as if you can't score highly its much less likely you'll get an offer. TSA just took a few weeks.

@MrsPengiuins Investment banking would NOT be my career choice! Honestly, I’m hoping she changes her mind! She is going to need to commit to the supercurriculars (and some serious hard work), and if she does, then maybe it is the career for her.

Whether or not she continues to be focused on investment banking, given she is very strong in maths (and nonverbal reasoning), I was thinking economics, and maybe maths. at degree level are perhaps good choices. IF she is good enough at maths - and that is what she is unsure about.

I hadn’t thought of asking the tutor she had for FSMQ, but I will ask him. He said that she picked up new concepts at the speed they would be presented at Undergraduate level, which was brilliant for her confidence but I might check with him more specifically what his thoughts are about degree level. It is an obvious thing to do but I hadn’t thought about it so thank you for suggesting it!!

Although I’ve taught for 30 years I’ve never come across the FSMQ so done a little investigating. (Level 3 qualification, equivalent to AS and attracts UCAS points, mainly done by independent schools who have either sat gcse early or have finished the syllabus early and have time to teach this to their brightest students). If she’s got an A in this she is obviously an excellent mathematician who will do well at maths and further maths (and I agree with an earlier poster that maths a-level should be straightforward, but she will need to work harder at further).

As she hasn't started her A Levels yet, I'd see how she finds things after the first term, for Oxbridge, the application deadline is about mid-October of Y13, so she will have some time to consider her supercurriculars in the summer term and summer holidays. I would say she should WANT to be doing the supercurriculars too, rather than a box ticking exercise.

I think Maths or Economics (or a combination, or PPE!), particularly Oxbridge will open many doors to all sorts of careers, Maths possibly more transferrable for eg computing type careers I imagine.

But she's got time.

I think it would be interesting to think about why she is starting from ‘I might not be good enough’ versus ‘obviously I’m good at this’ (because she is obviously good at this!) Underconfidence can be a real killer for girls.

Get her to have a look at the ‘seven day maths’ problems on the Kings Maths School site - they are an indication of the kind of problem-solving skills that the COWI unis test for, but pitched at GCSE/Y12 students. (They might well feel strange to her at first; get her to run through some of them with her tutor so she can understand how to approach them.) If you’re anywhere near London, Kings Maths School run summer schools for talented mathematicians and I think some of them might focus on girls. There are other maths schools around the country that might do similar things.

Don’t be bamboozled by olympiads etc. They are nice to have, but for Oxford, what they want to see are predicted grades (ideally 3 x A star including maths and FM) and a high (60%+) score on the MAT. (Don’t worry about the MAT yet.)

Does everyone take four A levels at her school/college? If not, and if she is still acing maths this time next year and still wants to do a maths degree, get her to think about dropping one of her A levels too, if she’s allowed. Better to get 3 x A star than 4 with a mixture of As and A stars. Oxford maths tutors categorically do NOT give a monkey’s about you having four, unless four is absolutely standard for your school (ie usually very high achieving schools.) (This might not be true for imperial though - they might prefer four.) And the spring/summer at the end of Y12 is a good time to start practising past MAT papers.

But from what you’ve said there is absolutely no reason to think she’s not the right standard - so maybe she needs to start thinking about herself that way?

(I’m not a mathmo, but both of my kids are and both did/are doing maths/mathematical sciences at Oxford.)

Apparently the content of the FSMQ additional maths qualification is good prep for A level maths.

I was brilliant at maths at GCSE. I even got full
marks in some of my A Level papers. I didn’t do FM, and honestly was out of my depth on the first day of my Maths degree (at a Northern RG Uni) and never really caught up. Final year was better as I had full free choice of modules and didn’t need to do anything applied or with graphs or with complex numbers that I really struggled with.

If I hadn’t been joint honours with a non science topic I don’t think I would have made it through my Maths degree.

I’ve since won medals for achievement in professional exams it’s not like I’m fundamentally unable to do higher qualifications - I just didn’t get on with maths despite doing well at A level and GCSE. I wouldn’t advocate it for anyone who doesn’t love maths and mathematical theory.

Good luck to your dd. I work for an RG uni and work closely with a lot of alumni who work for Goldman. Looking at the data most of them studied at UG or MSc econ, maths, econ history, accounting or finance. These are subjects Goldman seem to look for.

Good luck to your dd. I work for an RG uni and work closely with a lot of alumni who work for Goldman. Looking at the data most of them studied at UG or MSc econ, maths, econ history, accounting or finance. These are subjects Goldman seem to look for.

Thank you all so much.

@rachrose8 FSMQ is common in the grammar schools too, for the top maths groups. It has been a positive experience because it did give DD the confidence that she could do further maths at a-level. But also because she has covered a number of the A-level maths topics already (via the FSMQ).

@PacificState honestly, in part I think it was poor teaching in one of her previous schools, combined with the impossibility of differentiating maths at primary school. In one of her secondary schools, they told her she struggled to understand. She doesn’t ask questions and they seemed to take her silence as a lack of understanding. And she believed them. I also think the challenge of maths teaching is that you can have such a huge difference in ability, and primary schools, with large class sizes, are unable to offer the types of extension that really harness the curiosity and pleasure in problem solving. But that is a totally different topic of discussion 😊

Thanks so much for the link to Kings Maths School. Their enrichment class for Y12 students looks amazing. If she could get on that, it looks like it would be fantastic in helping to explore if degree-level maths is for her!!

She doesn’t have to take 4 A-levels, but we were thinking that maths and further maths wouldn’t be like two full A-levels because the content will be mutually supportive. We were also thinking that having done FSMQ she would have a pretty significant boost for the maths A-level. But dropping one is always an option. She will have to work hard.

@Venalopolos thanks so much for sharing your experience. It reinforces that for a Maths degree it will be crucial to explore beyond A-level. I get the impression that FM A-level may provide a better guide, but it sounds like she will need to love that. She is currently more focused on economics, and it will be interesting to see how she finds that.

Do you have her scores for GCSE and the FSMQ? Perhaps if she sees they are far above the 9 and A cut off she might feel a bit more confident about her abilities.

Econometrics might be another degree option worth looking at.

She got 94% on GCSE Maths. We don’t know for FSMQ. But she is dismissive of the GCSE mark because she says the GCSE is simply easy (at least for people who are stronger in Maths).

I hadn’t heard of that! Thank you. I will get her to have a look at that!!

Neither had I! Despite having a Maths with Economics degree myself.
It is what my ds1 did, 2021-2024.
He also wanted to go into investment banking (she needs to be looking at intern schemes ASAP), but he didn't get through all the recruitment stages. He is now working at a boutique economic consultancy, and seems to be really enjoying it. He has been doing a lot of economic modelling, although that's because he particularly enjoys it so has gone down that route, it isn't all they do.