TMUA/ESAT tests - for Physics at uni.

[CautiousLurker01]

Just wondered whether anyone whose DCs had been forced to suffer this additional round of test trauma had any advice.

The main questions are:

• Should we be looking to get tutors? There are programmes but one company quoted a financial ‘investment’ (🤣) of £4-5k and £120-150 per HOUR of tutoring!!!
• Or is it totally achievable to use text books/past papers/self-study and be able to hold your own against the hot-housed tutored candidates? [Gut feeling is that if DC wants it, they should be prepared to put in the graft, but I am a little biased as the cost of tutoring is horrifying].
• Also, we were thinking of aiming for the sitting in October, rather than Jan, as it would mean the tests would not get in the way of A Level revision/mocks and mean DC would have grades in hand when choosing unis/applying on UCAS [ie, if grades not good enough, would eliminate from the outset the unis that need these scores]… but appreciate that taking the tests in Jan gives a longer prep time and potentially higher grades, but we’d need to be very confident DC would get good scores as UCAS applications have to be in by end of Jan so we’d have to risk not meeting the criteria of 2/5 unis chosen.

Our DC is not looking at Oxbridge, but totally loved Warwick and is interested in visiting Imperial. DC wants to study Physics but at unis that have a reputation/specialism in particle physics. Concern is that Physics, due to the maths needing to be current, is not a subject that encourages taking a year out and reapplying with grades in hand, and it’s very competitive so we know 5 offers is unlikely. In an ideal world, DC should chose unis that don’t ask for these tests… but Warwick wowed DC and DH. I am secretly hoping that Manchester and Southampton similarly impress but they’d have to go some way to compete at the Open Day, plus Manchester is 4th in the league tables and has the luscious Prof Brian Cox on staff so will have masses of applicants.

Sorry lots of questions. STEM is not my wheelhouse!

I agree, I think that lots of tutoring companies are going to be jumping at the opportunity to extract funds from anxious parents and that you should tread carefully. I wonder whether doing some extra A-level tuition with eg Up Learn might not be a worthwhile and cheaper investment? TMUA and ESAT are supposed to be based on the A-level curriculum so working at mastering that, and familiarising oneself with the TMUA/ESAT format, should suffice.

@Ceramiq my concern with tutoring generally is that YPs may be tutored/groomed into over-achieving and then get to university where they drown. We’ve happily got A Level tutors periodically to make sure DC has really understood the curriculum as sometimes they romp through the syllabus with little opportunity to revisit and check students really understand it. But my thoughts are that the TMUA/ESAT are supposed to be testing their ability to use their understanding of the A Level syllabus in a way that demonstrates the ability to think at uni level? I don’t want to set DC up to fail at a later date, when doing so could have huge implications for self-esteem and MH. At nearly 18, it’s time to step up and draw on their own personal drive, isn’t it?

I’d have found money to have someone guide me him through the exam technique/question style, but I have issues with the idea of him spending all bloody summer on a computer doing a battery of past papers or online questions.

I understand your concern but if everyone else in competition with your DS is engaging in such behaviours then that is what he must do. I am personally of the opinion that lots of mathematics (or whatever) practice is a good thing - natural ability is all very well but subject mastery is incredibly important.

Tutoring companies will tell you that you need a tutor, but they would say that, wouldn't they? I don't know now anyone who was tutored for university admissions tests, DD certainly wasn't.

Follow the advice from Cambridge below, watch You Tube videos and don't waste your money.

How to prepare for the TMUA
The focus of the TMUA is on mathematical thinking. It uses mathematics you will have already learned in your school studies, so there is no need to take a preparation course or to do much preparation beyond familiarising yourself with the test format and style of questions. We recommend that you read the test specification and notes on Logic and Proof, to identify any topics that you might need to revise.
Free practice materials are available on the TMUA website.
We don’t expect you to get every question right – you can learn more about how your performance fits into the rest of your application on the admissions assessment page.

Thank you @Dearover I’ve forwarded that link to DS and realise we should open an account for him in the next week too. I’ve just seen their statement that they’ve become aware of private tutoring companies and that this is unnecessary as everything a student needs is on their website. Don’t now how I missed that when I looked a few days ago!

DH and I have gone through some text books/past papers with DS and he feels confident that he doesn’t need tutoring (apparently Warwick uni’s pages are also very comprehensive and have videos with guidance). DS appears to be happy to do lots of practice papers over the summer - though time will tell whether he doesn’t or not!

Apparently DS would rather trade self study for a decent set of drums…

Thanks everyone for helping me get some perspective! There is no way I’d fork out the sort of money uniadmissions are asking for. It’s obscene that some parents will have the money, or find it, because they [and probably not their DC] are desperate for Oxbridge or Imperial.

It's in the universities' best interests to make the tests as accessible as possible so they get the best pool of candidates to sift through. They understand that the vast majority of candidates don't use tutors, so the tests are meant to be designed to be tutor proof.

Encourage your DC to work through some past papers and see if they make sense. I suggest they speak to their maths teacher at school so they are also aware of what they are trying to achieve and can stretch & challenge them in class.

My son also wants imperial (although not for physics). We are off for the open day tomorrow.
I hadn't even considered getting him a tutor. He hasn't had a tutor since he was 10 for 6 months when there were issues at school with continuity of teachers.
If he can't get a place on merit, then he will go elsewhere.
I thought they had to do the early test for the early entry Unis. So I am expecting him to do it in October. Plus it is then out the way.

Hope the Open Day is inspiring! DS can’t go today as he has a 2 week work experience placement so will have to wait until the autumn rounds (I never understand why they hold them on week/school days!). Would love to hear your impressions?

I haven't been to any other open days with son and he did Oxford with school and Warwick with friends. So I can't compare. I can only think back to my uni days.....it wouldn't be my choice as right in a busy part of town but most first years seem to live in the Acton accommodation which we didn't get to see. Others we met today spoke highly of the engineering courses.
I don't think they do a hard sell because they are so popular so no need.
The SU was disappointing. Almost no society's out showing what they do.of course if son gets the grades and doesn't get Oxford he would go!!! But it's all what ifs....
Also son likes running and wants somewhere there are good running routes - central London isn't really it. For that reason I think we are going to look at Bath - so if you have any experience of that one or Birmingam or any where else that's a little more friendly... please share your opinions.
(I also agree about open days being in the week is difficult. I am allowed one day only in term time and that was today so I can't help with any others. And whilst I want my son to be able to get to Uni under his own steam - that isn't always possible in time for an open day. E.g. the only coach from here to Loughborough gets in a 10pm! And trains are a lot of changes) But equally weekend open days are tough too - my son plays in an orchestra on Sats and they are gearing up for a trip abroad at end of term - so he doesn't want to miss too many rehearsals. I think we will do some trips in the summer hols to walk around campuses.

Open days are a tricky one as in June, July and September the students have all gone home. The student tour guides get paid to give up their time, so you either get postgrads, some undergrads who live locally or those who are staying in their student houses over the summer. Students who are part of societies don't get paid to stay, so they are likely to be quite sparce.

AMSP ran a (free) TMUA prep course online a couple of years ago. Their funding has been reduced so may not be on offer any longer. Having some time to review pop ast papers with a maths teacher help. Or see if a maths undergrad who took the test could do some tutoring over the summer?

Warwick doesn’t need any additional tests for physics and isn’t oversubscribed so if you have the predicted grades (A star,A,A) then you have should get an offer.

We were impressed by Birmingham who are very good for physics and Lancaster always the hidden northern gem

Odd, because I could have sworn I saw that it was needed when we first started looking 6m ago - it may have been our confusion as DS was undecided about economics or physics. Relieved to discover not needed now though and he’ll only need to do ESAT if he wants to apply to Imperial.

The application to offer ration for MPhys, though, is 7:1 so I’d class that as over subscribed?

Imperial is oversubscribed 7:1 but Warwick isn’t. The UCAS tool has a 100% likelihood of an offer with A star A A at Warwick.

@CautiousLurker01 It actually doesn't sound like your son will need tutors if he has tried past papers and they are straightforward. I did want to mention one thing. A tutor is not going to get you to over perform in an exam only to under perform in person. At various stages we have had short term tutors for each of our 2 children in subjects that either I couldn't help them with in a month of Sundays or my DH didn't have time to help them with (Maths mostly). The tutors just gave each kid a bit more time with the concepts than they'd had in the classroom at school, so they actively were learning more deeply than they would otherwise have done and that knowledge and adjacent confidence has carried over into the next year and helped them deal with the new maths better than they otherwise would have done.

Having said all that in defense of tutoring, those sums you quote are extremely high and I'd certainly baulk at paying them.

No, what you need to remember with this ratio for most unis other than Cambridge, Oxford and imperial is that Warwick etc probably won’t be the top UCAS choice for applicants also applying to those. The excellent unis just below the very top get applications from the full range of possible candidates from backup/insurance to realistic favourite through to aspirational.

Anyway to your original question - dd had to do an additional test for Cambridge engineering a few years back, I’d guess somewhat similar. This was totally ok without tutoring; she quite enjoyed it. And maybe that’s a salient point - is the idea that this extra test is a ‘trauma’ rather than a bit of a challenge yours, or your DCs? It sounds like it may after all not be necessary for your DC, but perhaps in general if a student finds the idea of an extra test and a bit of extra self study problematic then that may suggest the courses requiring them may not suit them well.

Exactly, lots of people say 'no tutoring' but then are either equipped to help their children or have teachers in the family. Same thing really.

Apologies if this has already been said. But it's not the difficulty of the tests, it the speed at which you need to complete each question. So with all the time in the world the kids can get top marks. But you need to get so many questions right in a short space of time. So surely practising over andbover and over is what is needed rather than tutoring.

Sometimes tutors can help with the time saving element of such exams, especially with multiple choice questions. How to knock out the obvious wrong answers more quickly in order to settle on the correct answer etc. brings up processing speed.

The TMUA is a multiple choice...but the answers are really close together,.ie 1.0005, 1.00005, 1.00015, so you have to work the answer out and cannot guestimate. My DS just practiced practiced practiced, no tutor and got a really good score.

Applauding those who aced it with no tutoring. Just to add my angle, I'd been assuming likewise that it was fine to leave DS to do practice papers etc., as I'm clueless at maths and wasn't au fait with Oxbridge at all. A couple of months ago I checked in and found he was doing okay but not understanding everything, so I looked into tutoring and got him someone who'd done the exact course he wants to do and they were reasonably priced (standard tutoring rate, nowhere near what PP was quoted) so I paid for a few sessions specifically on TMUA.

Gotta say it's been a revelation. Whether he passes or not, what they've helped with is the way of approaching the papers, understanding what's being asked - because (to the extent I understand it) there's methods that could be right but would take ages so it's about seeing it in a different way to find the alternative paths to an answer. Kind of (in my layman's terms) like how on Taskmaster some people do the massive amount of legwork, but others come in and look in the right place and find the smart shortcut. He's clicked with that now and finding it all more enjoyable. Sure you could say that if he was bright enough, he'd have figured that out on his own no probs, but he's got 100% on AS math papers pre-tutoring so it's not lack of ability that's been the issue. He's at a low-achieving sixth form where no one goes to Oxbridge and I've no doubt that kids at whizzier schools are getting much more support in-school to think in the ways you need to for such tests, and I see this as giving him that chance too instead of expecting him to get there from a standing start. He knows it's fine if he doesn't ace it, there's no pressure from us, but if nothing else, it's an hour a week to work with someone who can talk his language and help him to the next level.

I'm not advocating tutoring for everyone, only giving my experience that it's been worth it regardless of outcome, because he's learned a lot anyway and the test is there to see if you're a good fit, and if you're not then it's good to find that out. But no learning is lost.

Just to build on my Taskmaster analogy - it's like he was someone who'd never watched Taskmaster so didn't know it was possible to look under the table for extra clues or ask Alex to do something for you instead of doing it yourself etc. Course some rare contestants will do that anyway, but it doesn't half make a difference if you've watched it and know these things are a possibility because otherwise you're assuming it's all there in the task and earnestly doing your best. Hope that makes sense!

@CautiousLurker01
My DC went through Physics admissions this year. They did both PAT and ESAT.
Your son will NOT need to do TMUA for Warwick. Maybe they needed it in the past, but not now.

Here is what my DC said about these tests.

ESAT - was generally not too difficult as to the level of questions, that are A-level based. BUT it was difficult because it was really time pressured - with a large number of hard A-level questions. So - what is key in prepping for this test is a lot of practice, and TIMED practice.
BTW Cambridge NatSci also uses ESAT - so if he is prepping for Imperial, there is no reason not to apply to NatSci....

PAT - had longer and more complicated questions. Less of them than on ESAT. Pressured, but in a different way.

As to applying / not applying to Oxbridge, but applying to Imperial.... Imperial is as hard, or harder to get into than Oxbridge. All of these receive a huge number of international applicants (it is very popular with Chinese students) - who spend years prepping for entrance tests in weekend schools. As a result - they score really high --- in PAT, for eg. majority of top 100 scorers are international.

Oxbridge has an extra benefit of interviews - where a local child who is passionate about physics can demonstrate their problem solving abilities - and thus compete with the foreign students that are great in acing tests.

Imperial does NOT have interviews, so just go with the test scores....

As to whether you need to help you DS prepare for the tests with a tutor or not - it sort of depends on his level of motivation - and ability to self-study. Does HE want to have a tutor to help him focus?

Also - he should try one practice test and see how he does now - to see his baseline. Then you can see if he needs to practice more the "exam technique" - or still need to solidify actual A-levels content.

Finally - Warwick has a strong physics program. Birmingham does as well - in addition to Manchester. At the BA level - he will not be specialising in Particle Physics anywhere really - he will be getting the basics of all areas of physics, that is required for future specialisation. Specialisation happens in Masters, or PHD - and many people move for Masters from the Unis where they did their BAs.