TMUA/ESAT tests - for Physics at uni.

[CautiousLurker01]

Just wondered whether anyone whose DCs had been forced to suffer this additional round of test trauma had any advice.

The main questions are:

• Should we be looking to get tutors? There are programmes but one company quoted a financial ‘investment’ (🤣) of £4-5k and £120-150 per HOUR of tutoring!!!
• Or is it totally achievable to use text books/past papers/self-study and be able to hold your own against the hot-housed tutored candidates? [Gut feeling is that if DC wants it, they should be prepared to put in the graft, but I am a little biased as the cost of tutoring is horrifying].
• Also, we were thinking of aiming for the sitting in October, rather than Jan, as it would mean the tests would not get in the way of A Level revision/mocks and mean DC would have grades in hand when choosing unis/applying on UCAS [ie, if grades not good enough, would eliminate from the outset the unis that need these scores]… but appreciate that taking the tests in Jan gives a longer prep time and potentially higher grades, but we’d need to be very confident DC would get good scores as UCAS applications have to be in by end of Jan so we’d have to risk not meeting the criteria of 2/5 unis chosen.

Our DC is not looking at Oxbridge, but totally loved Warwick and is interested in visiting Imperial. DC wants to study Physics but at unis that have a reputation/specialism in particle physics. Concern is that Physics, due to the maths needing to be current, is not a subject that encourages taking a year out and reapplying with grades in hand, and it’s very competitive so we know 5 offers is unlikely. In an ideal world, DC should chose unis that don’t ask for these tests… but Warwick wowed DC and DH. I am secretly hoping that Manchester and Southampton similarly impress but they’d have to go some way to compete at the Open Day, plus Manchester is 4th in the league tables and has the luscious Prof Brian Cox on staff so will have masses of applicants.

Sorry lots of questions. STEM is not my wheelhouse!

Thanks for the feedback - I think we misremembered the TMUA requirement because when DS started looking he was open to comp sci, economics or physics. It’s only since attending open days and progressing through his A Level material that he has decided he’s definitely going for physics (the TMUA is required for the other courses and, I believe for Maths&Phys options which he has also discarded.)

In 2024 the application/offers ratio for MPhys was definitely 7:1 but as some of you say, that is ‘standard’ across the subject and universities, so we’re trying to take that in our stride.

Re exam trauma - my DS had an unexpected disaster in his GCSEs. Predicted 8/9’s but got 6’s. He was diagnosed with ASD a year earlier so we initially thought that maybe there had been some anxiety, but having worked his socks off this year for his AS Levels he now recognises he didn’t revise properly and let his ego get in the way. He thought he could breeze them because he understood the material but didn’t take on board any of the exam practice advice 🤦🏽‍♀️ A humbling lesson, but better learnt now than later. As a result we are hoping he gets the predicted A’s in his AS levels and has exorcised that ghost. But we may find ourselves battling the screening process for UCAS that may see his applications rejected immediately just because he messed those up. I think a straight rejection is likely from Imperial on the basis of GCSEs and we sense that there is little point considering Cambridge for the same reason (which he is a bit heartbroken over as his dad read NatSci there). That said, several of the admissions tutors elsewhere have been encouraging and one even said to contact her if we were rejected as she would review his application personally as it’s her job to check the applications that slip through the gaps.

He is now (subject to doing well in AS Levels and meeting those predictions…but we’ve been there before) predicted 3 A*s next year. He has decided that, just in case he changes his mind about physics or wants to combine it with maths, he is going to do the TMUA along side the ESAT so that he has lots of additional information on his UCAS to counteract the GCSEs. He has won awards at college this year and his tutors are all in his corner so fingers crossed.

He has also decided that he doesn’t need a tutor - he will work over the summer and his amazing tutors at college have already said they will spend some time with him in sept/oct on exam prep (it’s a tech college so have a very small A Level/Access course cohort, but the staff are outstanding in their commitment and enthusiasm, so we have been very very lucky). The links shared here are also super useful, so thanks again.

thanks for explaining the exam trauma. Possibly the discipline of preparing for and sitting an additional test may even be beneficial to him.

Really interesting about the internationals getting the high test scores due to extreme prepping over many years. That is probably true of some of the UK candidates with family abroad too. I know a family from India who sends their son back there for the Summer where he attends all sorts of academic and sports tuition.

It's very difficult nowadays to say who has the 'core' ability, isn't it, as so many people have tutors, send their kids to holiday classes or help them prepare at home.

@CautiousLurker01

You have an amazing DS and it's great that he used his GSCE experience and learned from it. And - there is also a good news - his 6s at GSCEs will NOT hurt him IF he aces his ESAT.

I would also strongly advise him to focus on ESAT. Especially as he is wrong and TMUA is not needed for Physics/Math degree at Warwick:

Warwick requirements for Mathematics and Physics BSc (UCAS GF13):

A level typical offer
AAA to include A in Mathematics, A in Further Mathematics and A in Physics.
For students not taking A level Further Mathematics, the typical offer is A (Mathematics), A (Physics) and A in a third subject at A level.
General GCSE requirements
Unless specified differently above, you will also need a minimum of GCSE grade 4 or C (or an equivalent qualification) in English Language and either Mathematics or a Science subject

Also - Cambridge is known for NOT caring about GSCEs, especially comparing to Oxford that takes GSCEs 8/9 into account as a special co-efficient added to a total candidate score, but even then, it is a very small part of total assessment, even in Oxford. - as in its about 10 points of total max of 300 points....
So - don't discount your son's options. 6s at GSCE won't hurt him.

But what will hurt him is not focusing. ESAT is a hard test and he needs to practice for it single mindedly. And work on his UCAS statement, which takes time.

Good luck!!!!

@Sashya Imperial most definitely does interview, though perhaps not for all courses.

I understand that they will interview shortlisted candidates for physics - a 20-30min interview with an academic. It may be online rather than in person.

Online is the standard format for interviews everywhere now.

@Sashya thank you for the kind and encouraging comments - DS always hoped to apply to Cambridge without telling dad and wait to see what happened but his GCSEs knocked him back a bit. Dad still raves about the Cavendish laboratory so it was his dream but he has really chosen to learn from his blip and grown up so much this year. Very proud of him, wherever he goes as I know he will make the best of whatever cards he’s dealt.

Will talk to college in September and see what their thoughts are on having a punt at it if he pulled off As in the AS Levels. Counting down the days until 14th April!!

The applicants to offers ratio for Physics at both Warwick and Imperial was not anywhere near 7:1 in 2024. I think you are confusing number of offers with number of places on the course.

My DC has an offer from Imperial for Physics, just finished their A-levels.

And I can confirm - there are NO interviews for Physics at Imperial.
They do interview for Chemistry at Imperial - as there is no admissions test.
They also interview for Engineering, after ESAT.

For Physics - if you check their website it clearly states:
‘ Generally, the department does not hold interviews.’

@CautiousLurker01

Cambridge interviews for Physical NatSci - after ESAT
Oxford interviews for Physics - after PAT
These are the only universities that interview for Physics degrees.
Or combinations of Physics + Something else degree.
This is based on this academic year applications for 2025 start. Several kids from my DC year are off to study Physics/NatSci, and few are off to Imperial.

Once you have gone to the various open days - your son should have another look at what degrees he is planning to apply to and refresh his understanding of what is required, so that he bases his decisions on the most recent information.
(and he really should not waste his time on TMUA if he is applying for Physics - as it'll take away the valuable time he can spend on ESAT and personal statement time)

Thank you so much for all your detailed replies. DS now been talked around to just doing ESAT and focusing on acing those papers, rather than spreading himself thin. He is absolutely decided that he wants to apply for straight physics - targeting unis with a particle physics research pedigree - so can see that the TMUA will be extra stress he doesn’t need. He’s not interested in Oxford (it doesn’t have the Cavendish LOL) so thankfully we can ignore the PAT.

There is an open day at Cambridge next week but I think he wants to wait for his AS Level results before going - and I can see that, as once you’ve been it’s hard not to fall in love with the place. Imperial is in September so he will have an idea whether he has a chance. The ESAT books arrived yesterday, so he’s dipping in and out as he has ‘work experience’ at the moment. 🤞

Thank you again.

@CautiousLurker01

I'll add another piece of information he may need to think about. Cambridge has the Cavendish lab - but at undergraduate level, he won't be able to do "straight physics" - surprising as it sounds. It is the reason why my DC did not apply to Cambridge.

Oxford offers straight physics - where you only focus on physics during your BA degree.

Cambridge offers Physical Natural Sciences - where you can NOT focus on straight physics until Year 3. In the first two years he'll have to take other sciences in addition to Physics.
Course structure:
Year 1 - Students take three experimental subjects options from: Biology, Biomedical Sciences, Physics, Chemistry, Earth Sciences, Material Sciences + and one mathematics
Year 2 - Students take three subjects from different sciences.
Year 3 - Students take one subject

Also - I don't know what A-levels your son is taking - but he needs to have TWO sciences + Maths (with FM helpful) to even apply to Natural Sciences course at Cambridge....

If your son wants to do particle physics - he'll not get to do it at Cambridge until much later in his program. And he'll get a lot more physics at Manchester, Birmingham, Warwick, etc.

@Sashya that is brilliant info. Just had a chat with DS as we were debating the open days and he had remembered his dad telling him that he’d have to wait to y3 for physics at Cambridge (it didn’t get onto my radar). DS is absolutely physics focused and keen to do a MPhys/MSci programme, so we’re taking Camb off the table (one less day trip in September - hooray). So it’s Manchester, Imperial and Warwick… and then we need to find to ‘safe’ options to spread the risk. He’s feeling very focused and much clearer now on only needing to do the ESAT so this thread has really helped clarify stuff for him - as well as helping his mum understand it all… am social sciences/arts/humanities in my background and utterly useless with STEM. DH is great, but doesn’t do life admin - happily takes DS to Open Days and asks all the pertinent questions in the physics dept, but it’s down to me to understand the process and give him the York Notes version in his briefing and bullet point his instructions!!

Also very relieved that we don’t need to take out a second mortgage to pay for tutors…

Cambridge Natural science second year can be Physics A & B and Maths so it's only in the first year that science other than just Physics is studied. There is also Maths and Physics first year course that comes under Maths rather than Natural Science. The Cambridge open day in September is really to choose a college. I don't think the departments are open.

I’d also tell your DC to read up about Birmingham University's involvement with particles research with EIC and LHC at CERN. It is really impressive. DC has spent 2 hours talking to the professors in the labs there at the Open day and said if they don’t get i to Oxford/Imperial - could see themselves happy here too.

As to safe offers - Kings has AAA offers for physics, as do other London unis. Haven’t looked at many others as physics in general has high offers -
2 A star offers - Imperial, Durham, Cambridge, Manchester
1 A star - Oxford; Birmingham, Warwick
AAA - Kings