Applying to Cambridge Maths/Mathematics Undergraduate Degree with 3 or 4 Levels

[Cratos]

My DS is currently studying Further Maths, Maths, Physics and Economics A Levels (Year 12). He decided to apply for Cambridge Maths this October that require a Step exams next Summer during the period that he will also have his A level exams. He is considering dropping Economics to focus on Maths admission test papers. We are wondering if this is a good idea or not. They always say 3 A Levels is enough. But what if one of the 3 A Levels is Further Maths? I should probably add that he is probably going to get good predicted grades for all. Either A s or A stars. Thanks

"Whereas others expect 4 if you're taking FM"
Nothing else, no other subjects, just if you're taking FM. That suggests you buy into the fallacy of FM not counting as a 3rd subject.
They don't "get away with" 3, 3 is enough. If your DS chose a setting that prioritise quantity that's his choice, doesn't make others any less than or getting away with anything.

I don’t blame you. Whoever set that policy at your kid’s sixth form needs a stern word. I do suspect there’s a cohort of stick-up-the-arse heads of sixth form who haven’t bothered to check their facts and are obstructing students’ chances as a result. (Kids who are forced into taking a fourth have to do a disproportionate amount of extra work to get top grades, because maths, FM and physics are massively mutually reinforcing.)

Treating FM as a fourth A Level might be advisable if you’re going for Imperial (though I’m really not the expert on that), but in most cases it is absolutely not necessary for Oxbridge maths-related courses. I’m genuinely sorry you and your kid were given crap advice.

I also don’t blame you, @Lavendersong Of course one expects the DC school to be informed.

It is often private schools and grammar schools that push their pupils to do four ALs. Whether they perceive that doing so confers advantage, I don’t know.

Every admissions tutor I know prefers three A stars to A star, A star, A, A. If you are doing four A levels Imperial will usually make a dual offer. It is the schools who perpetuate this four exam myth.

It isn’t good for pupils and tutors don’t like it. Sure, four A levels is closer to a uni workload and seeing how candidates cope with the pressure, especially if they have an advantaged background, is good. But mainly we want to know what they are capable of at their best.

My nephew does maths at Cambridge. He did 4 A levels including FM. He had to teach himself FM as his school didn’t offer it. He felt he’d be at a disadvantage if he didn’t do it (fm specifically rather than it being a 4th A level). Whether that was for admissions or just his own learning I’m not sure.

I don’t have any maths application experience, but certainly looking for computer science degrees three years ago it was either Oxford or Cambridge (maybe both?) that had entry requirements of A Star A Star A, with some small print beneath stating that whilst the entry requirements were just 3 grades it would be expected that one of those would be further maths, and that students would have taken 4 A levels in total. This was for Computer Science for 2023. This may have changed now, but I assume with these sort of requirements in the maths-adjacent landscape at Oxbridge, then maybe schools emphasising / requiring 4 A levels allows for students to choose either maths or Comp Sci?

Maths, FM & Business Studies was fine for Oxford maths 5 years ago. The candidate dropped physics at the end of Y12 after attending the Uniq programme.

In my experience where schools / sixth form colleges say that further maths has to be done as a 4th a level, it’s not because they consider it to be a not-proper-full a level, and also not because they think that anyone applying for eg Cambridge maths has to have 4 a levels in total.

It’s usually because further maths a level is HARD unless you are really in the top top group at maths, and tends therefore to have a higher dropout rate than other a levels. So they don’t want to risk people taking maths, FM and physics, then dropping FM and finding themselves with only 2 a levels. Certainly in my son’s class, at least 1/3, maybe more, dropped out of FM in the first term.

Two Maths a levels at once, or one after the other, is very intensive and the pace is hard to keep up with for all but the most mathematically able students. I will never forget being excellent at maths all my life, getting an easy top grade at a level, then being completely lost at uni when the pace picked up and the maths moved into further maths territory (science degree not maths). I’d never imagined finding maths hard to follow and it was the combo of pace and content I couldn’t keep up with. Guessing this happens during maths + FM a level combo for some students and so they drop one.

At specialist maths 6th form colleges, they’re more likely to be comfortable with 3 inclusive of FM because the criteria to get in is likely higher.

I also suspect though that the drop out rate at places like my son’s college is a somewhat self fulfilling thing - since all the FM students are taking 4 a levels by definition, they’ve all got a higher workload and are more likely to need to drop something.

That makes sense at the beginning of Y12 @Talipesmum. And I definitely agree that if you’re struggling to cope with maths + FM, you will not enjoy a COWI maths degree.

But all of this will have become clear by the end of Y12, before predicted grades and early applications at the beginning of Y13. Schools that pressurise strong students at this point to carry on with a fourth ‘because the top unis won’t even consider you for maths if you just take three including FM’ are either lying because they want to shore up their own stats at the expense of their students, or are lazily handing out duff info. And I’m not sure which is worse.

Absolutely. I can’t see any sense in pressuring them at this stage to keep with 4 because unis won’t like it for maths - makes no sense. Like I said, I can see where they’re coming from at the start of a level choices conversations, but not at this point.

Good morning ! Thank you very much for your valuable contributions. My DS is still indecisive about what would be the best approach. He talked to his school's career department but although they were helpful, they were not very clear about 4 vs 3 A levels either. They advised him to talk to colleges but he has not decided which college he wants to apply to yet. He clarified that the big majority of the students in his College are doing 3 A levels. He will also talk to his head of Maths.

We were debating that perhaps it would be good to show that he has done Econ in Year 12 as a 4th subject on UCAS since this may help him to get an interview. He has not done any Math challenges etc. He will get either A or A Star predicted grade from Econ. He may still be rejected by Cambridge of course since we know that many candidates will have A Star predicted grades .
After his application if he is lucky enough to get an interview and if this follows an offer then at this stage he can evaluate the situation. If the 4th A level is included in the offer I guess he would have to do it. If not, perhaps he can call the college and ask if he can drop it or he can find out his other options.

I was thinking that maybe the students offering 3 A Levels from specialist math colleges have other things to show on their applications such as math competitions etc. He is doing a few Super curriculars but nothing too impressive to show really.

@Cratos he is very likely to get an interview, I think they interview around 80% of applicants so if he is predicted Astars in maths and further maths he should get one. Are you going to the open day in July? That would be a good time to ask questions. Some colleges are interviewing online and some in person so he might want to consider if he has a preference.

www.undergraduate.study.cam.ac.uk/apply/after/cambridge-interviews

All Oxbridge care about is: can you do maths. Are you really, really good at it. Do you have a mathematical brain, do you see things.
They really don’t care whether you’ve done economics or whether you’ve shown you can do loads of work at A level by doing 4 A levels. (Someone made the workload point earlier but it just isn’t relevant for maths although perhaps it is for humanities with lots of reading.)
I doubt they even consider the personal statement.
They want people who can do maths. The reason they have the step exam is they don’t want people who’ve got their A stars by just doing loads of past papers, they want people who think like a mathematician.
University maths is completely different to A level and Oxbridge is on another planet.
Please find the maths tutors at the open days and talk to them. Don’t take advice from anyone who hasn’t done maths or successfully advised students applying for maths.
And yes I do have an Oxford maths degree.

Re the workload thing, I’m I don’t doubt your’e right re maths, but it’s probably relevant for engineering and NatSci too as they’re very content heavy, lots of lectures and labwork, even moreso than the humanities.

normal advice is that it’s best to make the decision about whether to drop or continue a 4th subject before making the UCAS application. I think it’s a real shame that students don’t even get the option of sitting an AS if they don’t want to continue to do the full thing.

@ErrolTheDragon yes I agree. It is a shame they don't do the AS levels for all subjects. It is a lot of extra work for schools I guess. He could have done it externally but it is too late now.

Why not apply for the economics degree? It's very mathematical and also easier to get into compared to Cambridge maths

@Khalidsamy DS was considering Economics at the beginning of the year and that is why he took Economics but he changed his mind now.

I don't think its true that Economics at Cambridge would be easier to get into than Maths - admission stats show 10.2% successful for Economics and 14.1% for Maths. My DDs school which has high numbers going to Oxbridge (state) advised against Economics, Computer Science and Medicine if wanted to maximise chance of getting in to universities. I would go with what he enjoys most.

Fair enough

Yes true Economics is very competitive too but a little less brutal perhaps since it requires TMUA not Step. Maths applicants to Cambridge need to do both exams since many other unis want TMUA for Maths.

Yes the Cambridge Maths needing step and then taking half of those with offers is difficult. DD knew several who applied for Oxbridge Maths and some went for Oxford to avoid the step offer issue. Having said that in her year Oxford Maths testing went badly wrong and some people had computer access and some didn't. They tried to rectify it but it wasn't great. DD had TSA for Economics as she tried for Oxford but that was relatively straight forward. I had STEP Economics back in my day but luckily that's now been abolished.

Inspired by another thread I looked up the numbers for 2024. Students taking 4+ A levels approx 14,940. Students taking FM A level 17,140. Therefore not all students taking FM are taking 4 A levels although some will do AS FM (4,926).