Applying to Cambridge Maths/Mathematics Undergraduate Degree with 3 or 4 Levels

[Cratos]

My DS is currently studying Further Maths, Maths, Physics and Economics A Levels (Year 12). He decided to apply for Cambridge Maths this October that require a Step exams next Summer during the period that he will also have his A level exams. He is considering dropping Economics to focus on Maths admission test papers. We are wondering if this is a good idea or not. They always say 3 A Levels is enough. But what if one of the 3 A Levels is Further Maths? I should probably add that he is probably going to get good predicted grades for all. Either A s or A stars. Thanks

STEP is an enormous challenge. Cambridge set the grades so that inly about 50% of offer holders make their STEP requirement.

Historically Maths, FM and Physics is a fine combination for Cambridge. These are the three core subjects by far. I think his plan is excellent.

Although he obviously hasn’t had all of the relevant background material, this summer is the ideal time to start STEP preparations. Cambridge has a lot of good material online, including past papers and solutions, and the Advanced Mathematics Support Network has some also. (All free). Other MumsNetters may have good sources, also.

Best wishes to DS

Thank you so much for your advice. It is good to know that he will not have a disadvantage if he drops his Economics A level at the end of Year 12.

They tend to expect 4 A Levels if a school offers FM. It is not advisable to drop one for Oxbridge.

They may only require 3 results to get in but the expectation is that you do the 4.

https://www.maths.cam.ac.uk/undergrad/admissions/faq

Hi again -

It is not just about FM, but @Lavendersong has extracted the answer to an FAQ about three vs four A levels. I think the key is the last bit: do most pupils at DS’ school do four?

The statistics skew heavily to Maths, FM and Physics because overall that is the common core and, I suspect (without actually looking into it recently) that as a significant majority of Cambridge Maths entrants are from state schools they probably do have only three A levels.

If DS is at a school where four is the norm, he needs to think about whether he can make a strong case for only doing three. I thank @Lavendersong for raising this point.

Thank you very much both. My DS is attending a State school and only a small percentage would be doing 4 I believe since the school didn't initially want to give him 4 A Levels but they were convinced when they realised that one of them was going to be Further Maths ( since many take this as AS). I still find the Cambridge information link about the 4 A Levels a little confusing since it doesn't mention Further Math in particular. Perhaps best to get in touch with the admissions team.

PS. My DS also attended state school prior to College .

They probably don’t need to mention it in this FAQ because it’s clear from one of the others in that link that if the school offers it they should take it. They also deal with the question of what happens if the Maths is taken in yr 12 and FM in year 13.
If in doubt then yes, your DS should contact the admissions tutor of the college(s) he is thinking of applying to - they can vary in their exact requirements.

You would be expected to take FM if it's offered:

• A Level: Astar Astar A (Mathematics, Further Mathematics + another subject) + 1,1 in STEP 2 and 3
• Note that, depending on individual circumstances, some Colleges may make an A level applicant an offer that will be met if they achieve either Astar Astar A with at least a grade 1 in STEP 2 and 3, or Astar Astar Astar with at least a grade 1 in just one of the two STEP papers taken.

Cambridge maths offers are brutal, as getting the A level grades are the easy bit, with STEP the deciding factor. Has he looked at Oxford, as it doesn't need STEP, so there is less risk of disappointment on results day.

Thank you. My son is thinking of dropping Economics not Further Maths. School offers Further Maths and he is taking this subject as a full A level. How do you interpret this information on the website- do you think he can do 3 subjects Maths, Further Maths and Physics and still apply to Cambridge Maths ?

Thank you. He is not considering dropping Further Maths he is considering dropping Economics. So we are wondering if this is OK since he will still have 3 A Levels but 1 will be Further Maths. He would like to apply to Cambridge not Oxford. But I know what you mean it is brutal and that is why I think he wants to drop Economics so that he can focus on his Step and TMUA exams.

Is he going to one of the open days? This is the time to ask, as different colleges may have different approaches. Tell him to continue with 4 for now.

Is his school one which receives regular offers from Oxbridge or would it be more of a rarity? How do his GCSE results compare to the norm for his school?

yes, especially if:

1. most in his school only do 3 A levels amd
2. they take the all 3 A levels in yr 13.

(fwiw my dd did engineering at Cambridge with maths, FM and physics, having dropped her 4th subject after AS - it was pre-reform - and also did an EPQ)

If he’s going to do a maths degree then absolutely he should do FM. He should obviously check the requirements for his other UCAS choices - all Cambridge applicants need to be clear that the likeliest outcome is that they won’t get an offer and will likely be going elsewhere. But I’d be surprised if M, FM and P aren’t fine for all of the others.

@ErrolTheDragon has raised the key point, OP: when in doubt, ask. I am a former admissions tutor and we are happy to help. Although with a large majority in his school doing only three ALs the situation seems clear cut.

If he wants clarity, he should get it before Y13 begins. He can email Maths admissions at two or three of the Colleges he is most interested in. A brief, courteous message explaining that the large majority (an approximate percentage if known) of pupils do three A levels. He would be sitting them all after Y13 ‘together with STEP if I am lucky enough to get a Cambridge offer’ and Economics doesn’t fit with his passion for Maths as closely as he had expected it to, so he would rather focus on his core subjects.

BTW, at interview Cambridge is largely trying to select the applicants who will benefit most from being there. A big part if this concerns the tutorial system. One reason for starting STEP revision now to the extent possible is that it will help with creative thinking.

Part of the interview may comprise a mock tutorial.

Being able to explain your thoughts verbally, work well with someone else (collaborating effectively) and accept challenge gracefully is also important. Could DS find a study buddy? If not, even practice talking his work through to a family member or empty room can help a lot!

Best wishes to him

I know of at least two young people doing Maths at Trinity, Cambridge with Maths, FM and Physics A Levels alone. It is a 100% acceptable A Level choice for maths degrees at almost all the other top UK unis for maths (including Oxford). The only exceptions I know of are a) Imperial, which I think prefers 4 A Levels, and b) the exception raised earlier in the thread here - if your school routinely does 4 A Levels.

There’s a very persistent belief among parents (and, shamefully, some sixth-form teachers, who really should be better informed) that FM somehow ‘doesn’t count’ with unis as a full A Level. Honestly, this is a total myth if you’re applying for highly numerate degree subjects (maths, physics, engineering, computer science). I’ve no idea where it comes from - maybe there was some truth to it 30 years ago, but it’s completely false now.

NB I’m only talking about maths and maths-related degrees - I’ve no idea what the best advice is if you’re applying for other subjects.

I'm sorry to ask some brutal questions, but if your DS is finding the workload of those 4 A levels high, is maths at Cambridge the best fit for him? The admissions procedure is brutal, because it's a really tough course. DH did maths at Cambridge - he sailed through A levels (5 of them...) with very little effort, as well as the STEP papers, but he found the degree hard, and got a 2:1, never a first. Most of those who studied maths here found the material for A level further maths 'obvious', and didn't really need to work at it. In contrast, I did further maths at A Level, had to work hard at it and got a good A (highest grade then), but am very clear I would never have coped with the maths syllabus at degree level, at least not at Cambridge.

Does he find Further Maths easy and fun?

Because if not, Cambridge Maths is almost certainly not right for him.

It is full of people who were the maths geniuses at their school who find out in the first term that compared to others on the course, they don't appear to be that good at maths.

DH informs me that Economics A level might hold him back as they will teach at Cambridge that everything on the A level is wrong. But he should be seeing Further Maths as a doddle and Step as some extra fun in Maths, Cambridge is likely to be a miserable experience.

Hi, @CambridgeCambridge

The DS seems concerned about STEP rather than A levels. He may or may not be a good fit with Cambridge; that is between him, his referee and Cambridge.

My most recent (as I write) post on the thread titled something like ‘Uni offers and private schools’ may be of relevance

@CambridgeCambridge totally agree.
DH and I both did Further Maths at A level (different schools) - DH found it obvious, I found it horrendous work and got a C.

I was friends with some Maths students at my Russell uni and was stunned to discover their first year was basically the Further Maths syllabus and I was better at Maths than a lot of them.

DH went to Cambridge but not Maths - as he could see that even though he was great at Maths, he was not the super genius of his school. That guy got a starred First at Cambridge.

Maths at Cambridge is a very very select group of mathmeticians.

My daughter is in year 12 and wants to study maths at university. She started with 4 alevels but now is taking maths, fm, physics. She asked admissions tutors at several universities (including Cambridge and Oxford, imperial, Warwick, Bristol, Edinburgh, st Andrews) and all have said those three are fine and won’t disadvantage her against someone taking 4.

@Dearover yes he went to the Cambridge Math open day but at the time he was not considering dropping Economics. He took this subject to decide whether or not he wanted to study it as an undergraduate degree but he enjoys Maths and he wants to study Maths now.
His GCSE s were excellent. He completed 12 and they were all 9's except 1 and that was 8. He did all the Science subjects etc. He would be at the very top I think at his State College (he was at the very top at his Secondary as well).

He is attending a big college and about 20 students received Oxbridge offers from his college last year.

@ErrolTheDragon thank your for your advice and for sharing your DD s experience. Amazing achievement.

@poetryandwine thank you very much for giving him some guidance about how he can write to the admission teams. Yes he will get in touch with Cambridge colleges he is interested in applying and his own college to make sure. I really appreciate your advice about the interviews as well. As you mentioned, having a study buddy is very useful and he has got one. He has also started doing some work towards TMUA and STEP. We will also check your thread called Uni offers and private schools.

@PacificState thank you for your advice. It is great to know that other unis have similar attitudes. We had no idea that some schools routinely did 4 A Levels before starting this thread. They must be private schools.

My DS has got an open day in Imperial so he can perhaps clarify what they require then. Imperial currently states AAA (applicants studying three A-levels) AAAA (applicants studying four A-levels). Somewhat confusing for me since I would expect they would give a slightly reduced offer for 4 A level.
As you mentioned, Further Maths A level causes some confusion thank you for clarifying this.

@CambridgeCambridge good point to raise thank you. I think he wants to have more time to do Maths. He doesn't seem to be struggling at the moment but this doesn't mean he doesn't work hard. It is hard to judge it well at this stage. But he is organised and he generally found extra work manageable. He is predicted A Star for Maths, Further Maths and Physics. Economy may be A or A Star.

@AnnaMagnani I just asked him if he finds Further Maths easy and fun and he said "yes most of the time" . Thanks for asking this. It is very important.

@bettyjane thank you so much for sharing this valuable information with us. Best wishes to your DD !

If he’s going to drop economics, best to do it before submitting his UCAS form then they can only offer on 3. Worst of all worlds is being locked into doing 4 and then not having enough capacity to prepare for STEP.

Does he enjoy economics? I enjoyed having something else to switch my brain to during levels, helped keep me vaguely sane.

It sounds as though he has a good chance of an interview. He needs to practice solving maths problems out loud & using a white board, explaining his logic.

Visit a range of different colleges at the open day next month to get a feel for where he thinks he would fit in.

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