UCL over Imperial and Oxford?

[JulietOnTheMoon]

DS got an offer from UCL, Bristol, KCL, Imperial and Oxford. Currently his first choice is UCL.

It's him who goes, so obviously he should choose where he wants to go. But people seem to think DS would choose Oxford if not Imperial, and UCL would be a good back up.

Their reaction made me start this thread, just to collect more information from those who may know the differences and values of those universities. And with all the information and knowledge, I would like to chat with him and give him a chance to rethink before he makes a concrete decision.

Any words would be greatly appreciated.

Oh, I see. But I guess there would also be a 'club' run by ex-UCL/Imperial students? It might be smaller (?), but UCL/Imperial graduates have connections like Oxford graduates have...?

I’m honestly not sure that sort of ‘club’ operates so much among scientists. IME it’s more about what you’ve done to enable the next step - final year projects within top research groups are just that bit more likely to yield a postgrad position in a top research group and thence to postdocs or industry positions. But there’s plenty of movement between unis at all levels.

Oxford. You live in London so he can take the bus service regularly between Oxford and London.

OP, people will argue forever about how many doors are opened by Oxbridge - some will say loads, others will say these days it makes no difference. I don’t think anyone can deny that Oxbridge will always have a cachet, slightly above other universities, whether deserved or not.

But as others have said the main difference which your DS really should think about is the tutorial system is unique and far superior to what the others offer. What someone said about feeling like a number that academics couldn’t really be bothered with is sadly true at most UK universities, however excellent their reputation.

Peiple saying well, I went to UCL and loved it and I met someone at UCL who turned down Oxford and didn’t regret it isn’t really a good enough reason to choose - of course many people love UCL, of course many people turn down Oxford and go on to have great lives but you’ll never know what other paths might have been open to you..

I still say that it’s the girlfriend is a massive red flag, your DS may say she has nothing to do with the decision, but that’s exactly what I would’ve said at 18. I’m also not quite so sure why he’s so keen on living at home, Oxford is not that far from London and the accommodation is subsidised. Part of the university experience used to be about leaving home and entering the wider world, he can spend the rest of his life in London if he wants to.

Anyway, obviously it’s his decision and I’m sure it will all turn out for the best but he should definitely go to imperial if he does stay in London

But UCL & Imperial have top research groups too. Also, Oxford takes postgrads from many other universities, not just its own graduates.

Yes, exactly so.

My ds is also going to study chemistry and has applied to all the same unis as yours, bar KCL. He is still waiting to hear from Imperial, but assuming yes, he will have Oxford as firm and Imperial as insurance. If Imperial says no, then UCL as insurance.

DS is very keen on maths ( doing maths and FM a levels) and on the open day at UCL, the lecturer giving the chemistry talk said “don’t worry if you don’t have maths a level because we go over everything from scratch so it will be fine”. That really put ds off, the idea of studying stuff he already knows and having to work with students who haven’t even done maths a level. He still applied because of UCL’s reputation, but chose chem with maths as a degree in the hopes of harder maths.

Also, to be frank, all the Chinese students at both Imperial and UCL are a worry. I understand that ds can pay £9k because these students are subsidising him. But even on the open day at Imperial, all the students giving the talks and demonstrations were Chinese and difficult to understand. I think this will add another layer of complexity having to deal with communication issues. If your study group or lab partners are primarily Chinese, are they going to fall back to speaking their first language together?

For ds, his college at Oxford also guarantees accommodation for all 4 years which was a relief for us, and only charges for the short 8 weeks term time. Finding and paying for 4 years of London accommodation was less appealing, although I appreciate you already live there so maybe less of a worry for you.

I agree with the other posters that it would be a shame to turn down Oxford for the reasons they all gave. It would just be a chance to spread his wings a little further and have an experience that so few people get with the tutorial system.

His preference for alternatives to Oxbridge, in December around interview season, which you mention is entirely normal OP. It also happens close to results time when students have high offers. It can be a defence mechanism to help them deal with potential disappointment and prepare for the alternatives.

Look, the London unis are great. Oxford will always be a bit different and special. You or he can challenge the ideas of Oxford giving something different as much as you like. He and you can feel that you can be ‘beyond’ the Oxford preconceptions and choose purely on course and go down the less standard route of rejecting Oxford. That’s fine. A few do each year. But most don’t. And you can decide that the majority are wrong or just sheep or that your son has unique circumstances which mean the typically viewed 3rd best option of the 3 is best for him. Of course you can.

How open is he to think about it logically and discuss it with you? You mention feelings he had in December. But it’s now March and he has offers for 2 of them I think - Imperial still to come?? What have recent conversations suggested about his thoughts on tutorial system, course content and potential impact on future, along with whether there will be options for London in future? Or haven’t you really talked about these things and is it difficult to do so?

You say the GF isn’t influencing the choice, but beware that he might have concerns about going somewhere alone or feel more tied to her than you think. When the GF is at the rather unusual choice option, you really have to query if this makes no impact at all….and also if an 18 year old has considered all the issues. Maybe he has….but have you discussed with him the things that have been raised on this thread? If you have, you can and will have to let him choose and can do so knowing everything has been considered. But if you haven’t had what could be a tricky conversation, then you and he risk potential later regrets….as there is only 1 opportunity to be an Oxford undergrad.

He might be one of the few for whom this alternative route is better. Fair enough. But it’s simply not the route most with these choices go down and he needs to think through if there are genuinely good reasons for that.

All the best in deciding. What amazing options!

Yes - there isn’t this club in science. We have our own club (we are not morally superior!) which includes oxbridge, imperial, Edinburgh. Increasingly Glasgow also. Berlin, Paris too.

Great post from @WombatChocolate.

I do think he should consider those points carefully @JulietOnTheMoon . If he rejects Oxford, it should be bc he has carefully considered the almost unique offer inc intensive tutorial system and decided he does not want that - rather than bc he might as well stay in London.

Issues of many students from elsewhere as mentioned, also continuing to live at home and going where his GF is are also relevant. Is it possible he is going for the lower offer as a defence mechanism?

Great posts by @Umbilicat and @WombatChocolate.

Many centuries ago, I studied at Cambridge (modern languages) and I think the tutorial system is terrific and not closely reproduced elsewhere. My elder DD has a lot of contact time at Edinburgh because her main subject is quite niche and I think my younger DD will be in the same position (hopefully at Durham) for the same reason but friends of theirs studying more mainstream subjects at a range of unis seem to just find themselves in lecture theatres containing vast numbers of students more or less all the time with very little personalised attention.

Also, Oxford is very near London. You say he was at a specialist school so perhaps there are health-related considerations making him want to stay in London but if that is not the case it seems a bit of a shame for him not to take the chance of living away from London. My DDs grew up in London and love it and think they will probably settle here eventually - which made them all the more determined to go away for uni.

You know your son - we’re all strangers - but this just smacks hugely of a decision being taken for shortsighted reasons and one which he will regret when he looks back on it.

Amongst many interesting and thoughtful posts here I specifically commend those by @ErrolTheDragon , @Umbilicat and @WombatChocolate .

From my experience as an admissions tutor and a personal tutor, I also wonder how much the GF, fear of leaving familiar surroundings and reverse snobbery are playing into this, in ways DS himself might not recognise.

Also:

What does he mean by the Maths intensive approach at UCL? Oxford and Imperial require Grade A at A level Maths whilst UCL does not require Maths. Does DS need the review UCL will offer in spite of his PGs? (Not a criticism!) Because the other two programmes are likely to be more Maths intensive.

What type of diversity is he talking about? UCL might (I don’t know) have the most diverse British cohort but Imperial has the greatest % of Overseas students.

Oxford attempt to select candidates who will benefit most from the tutorial system, which is an unrivalled method of teaching and learning. But it is very intense and most benefits those who have the confidence to engage and accept criticism as a learning device. If this doesn’t suit DS, okay then; however many do adjust and thrive. It is a big opportunity to discard. Fine if you have a good reason, but does he?

I agree fully with @ErrolTheDragon that science is somewhat clubby but the criteria are (more) merit based. These are three fine programmes and DS can launch himself from any of them. But he will make the best decision if he is very honest with himself and I don’t think he is there yet.

Best wishes to him

Ds found the Chemistry degree at Oxford ‘dry’ on the open day - it’s very traditional. However the name would definitely open doors. IC had a much more exciting course with options to study abroad or a year in Industry. If he wants London then I’d say this is a great course.

Also both Ox and IC have a maths heavy focus.

I agree with everyone’s overall advice on choosing for the right reasons, just wanted to chip in. DS2 didn’t get an Oxford offer after two rounds of interviews but would have taken it if offered. I was less keen having read that the course ‘layered up’ where year 2 examines year 1+2, year 3 examined years 1+2+3, and year 4 is compulsory. DS2 applied only at the last moment for imperial as he listened to a talk about the course and the course itself was just all the things he loved and not so much of the stuff he was less keen on. He went to imperial and is loving it all in aspects, despite being from London. He has many friends from all over the globe and has not found his course full of non English speaking Chinese by any stretch, maybe the other students don’t help on open days as they are too busy out playing sport etc!!!.

He didn’t apply to ucl and would not view the course as positively. DS2 found it hard to choose between imperial and Edinburgh.

OP - is there a particular reason you don't want him to go to Oxford? Your posts seem to look for reasons to say that UCL vs Oxford choice is rational.
It is hard to do, if you look at the quality of teaching, and, as a result - of the degree he will receive. The quality is greatly affected by the tutorial system, that allows for a much more personalised and deeper understanding and command of the subject. As well as a different student cohort - that again aids in the education.

You seem to take on faith the words of an 18yo boy saying that he is not making this choice because of his girlfriend. It is highly unlikely to be the truth, especially if the other reasons he is listing are - UCL is more diverse and UCL's course is more maths-heavy, where both of these reasons are untrue.
I think your son is not thinking rationally here, and is probably not even aware of his own motivation. Which is most likely a combination being afraid to leave home; his GF; and his fulfilling his predicted grades.
(Even the most able student thinks about fulfilling the grades, so suggesting that it does not come into his thinking is also strange.)
I think helping your child to navigate their fears and encouraging them to aim higher is something we all should do.

Now - the grade requirements for these courses are: Oxford AAA; Imperial A*AA (with min AAA for contextual), and AAA at UCL. As others said - both Oxford and Imperial require at least an A in Maths to apply. UCL does not require Maths at all.
So - your son is seems to be misunderstanding of what UCL's degree actually contains (thinking it is more math-heavy), and underestimating Oxford / Imperial.
(Incidentally, as you said your son does not know the grade requirements for his Imperial offer - I wonder how that is possible? Do you mean to say he is still waiting to hear from Imperial - as offers are issued WITH grade requirements?..)

Oxford is clearly a riskier offer based on the grade requirements - so having UCL as his insurance offer would always make sense. In addition - he really should go and see Oxford again, especially if his offer holders day is online. All you need to do is to email the admissions of your college and they'll find the time. I'd also ask if he could meet the current chemistry students and tutors.

Finally - you seem to be somewhat ambivalent about Oxford. Your son did really well in getting a place there - so many try and fail. It is a truly special place and a one time opportunity, that will not come again. Is there a particular reason you don't want him to go there? Are you worried he will not be able to keep up - because of his health or other circumstances? Or - it is a reverse snobbery as someone suggested?

Oxford and Imperial degrees are comparable. UCL vs Oxford is a really strange choice, especially when that choice is made for irrational reasons.

Sorry OP but he would be insane to turn down Oxford for undergrad. As pp have said, it's 3 lots of 8 week terms per year. That's it! The time flies by. He lives in London anyway, so he'll still be in London for most of the year. Is he socially anxious or scared of leaving home or something?

If he must go to UCL, do a Masters there. But the London unis are not the same for undergrad experience. Students are spread out all over the place. Much harder to find people. At Oxford everything is on tap and it's a unique experience, like no other really. Plus the tutorial system there, it's a different league.

Sounds to me like he's scared to leave home. But Oxford isn't exactly far from SW London.

We are also SW London. DC turned down LSE and UCL for this reason. He went to Cambs and then a MSc at Imperial. London unis are better for the postgrad experience, I think.

I would strongly advise Imperial or Oxford. I was at the former, albeit a long time ago. The chemistry course was demanding and felt somewhat intimidating in the early part of the first year, causing my classmate to transfer to UCL. However, once settled, it became quite clear the knowledge and practical experience on offer at Imperial was truly superior, and highly stimulating. In my final year, I received places for doctorates at both Cambridge and Oxford (winning a prestigious graduate scholarship and a generous industry sponsored award). Due to personal circumstances, I went straight into investment banking instead, without further study, where the Imperial degree held me in good stead. Another point to consider is Oxford had a single undergraduate course which was and I think still is 4 years long. Imperial has a number of 3 or 4 year courses -- helpful if your son wants to change direction, do a masters elsewhere, or study abroad for a year.

Ultimately I think dc making a positive choice for themselves is the single most important factor. However, I am much more concerned that he is turning down Imperial than Oxford tbh. Oxford is a very specific experience and it's not for everyone. But I'd agree that all his other reasons don't exclude Imperial and tgat majes me also wonder how much the gf is influencing his thinking. I think he should look again at the maths approach at both London unis.

My niece was at UCL and had a great time despite accommodation nightmares, but I'm a bit struck that it doesn't seem to have changed her life at all (she might beg to differ). She was obviously going to marry her boyfriend before she went there, and she has done that. (He was elsewhere). She no longer pursues her subject and has gone on to work in something she did during sixth form. Whereas ds at Cambridge has a completely different life compared to his sixth form life.

Ds knew he didn't want to apply to London unis. I think a Londoner like your ds has every right to want to stay in the city- Oxford is essentially a village with delusions of grandeur, much as I love it (I live here) amd he wiukd probably spend large amounts of time away from it. But turning down Imperial is a concern.

I think it’s fair enough to turn Oxford down. Oxbridge isn’t for everyone and I know so many who had really bad mental health there. I would highly encourage him to pick Imperial over UCL though. It’s fantastic for chemistry (I went there) and up there with the top science universities in the US.

One random anecdote.

A neighbour's son studied STEM at Oxford and then went on to work at UCL. He says he now wished he had taken his first degree at UCL. He thinks he would have enjoyed it more. Horses for courses. Fellow students and academics will be just as impressive and several will not have applied to Oxbridge because it did not appeal.

The best you can do it to get him to think about the various pros and cons. Perhaps visit them again. We did this with DS when he was offered a Masters place at Oxford, and allowed him to come up with reasons why he felt staying in London was the better option. In retrospect, though we thought he might enjoy Oxford, it seems to have been the right decision. London Universities like UCL really do have a very strong international reputation.

I’m a big advocate for Imperial or Oxford here. Honestly UCL and imperial aren’t far away if the girlfriend is a concern. But I’m biased, DH did undergrad, masters and PhD at Imperial and we still have strong ties with them for work. They really are top tier and there’s a reason they attract international and eastern students. Some of the best years of our lives were knocking around Eastside halls and bar and who doesn’t want to graduate from the Royal Albert Hall. We also work a little with UCL and personally I’d say it’s no comparison.

Would be interested to know what decision is made as I have a DC in the same position, UCL, Oxford and Imperial offers. Will be DC's choice in the end but I was initially hoping it would be Imperial.

Sorry OP but it's madness (and I went to UCL). UCL is a great uni, but it's total madness to turn down Oxford and Imperial for it. He is just choosing UCL because of his girlfriend.

I once read a thread where a DS turned down Cambridge to go to York because his GF was going to York.