AIBU - gutted for them regarding early entry subject rejections (non-oxbridge)

[westerdays]

I teach a STEM subject at sixth form level. in the South West of the UK.
I'm also involved in the UCAS process for our school's applicants.

Our school extends support to would be medics/dentists/vets etc who don't get a uni place on those type of courses first time round.

Some pupils resit an A Level (or 2), some just need reassurance that many very able applicants do take more than one UCAS application to get a place or advise on their chances given their UCAT score/likelihood of increasing that score, or a realistic opinion on their chances.

I've noticed that the non ethnic lads at our school are having the toughest time securing places to study medicine/dentistry/vet sci, no matter how good their academic track record or how high their UCAT score, the interview performance seems to trounce all of that. I had one lad who, having applied for a third and final time for dentistry last year was rejected again post interview. He's going abroad to study dentistry and his plan is then to return and work his way through all the processes required of "non uk trained" dentists before they can fully practice dentistry in the uk. He's always been an extremely able all-rounder and I have no doubt that he'll pick up enough of the local language quickly enough to assist with his studies.
We're fortunate enough to have enough parents who are doctors/dentists/pharmacists/vets etc volunteering to do multiple practice interviews, but it's generally the girls/ethnically diverse boys who seem to have most chance of getting the offers after interviews these days even though our "mock interview panels" haven't found any major distinguishing factors between many of our school's applicants when it comes to feedback to aid interview performance in the real thing.

Speaking for dentistry , it is massively competitive and academically there is little to distinguish most candidates . It is most particularly soft interview skills which differentiate . You can teach a lot of things but the ability to communicate and engage with people , not just regurgitate coached answers , often winnows out many candidates.

Girls have an inbuilt advantage in communication skills and those who have had jobs dealing with the public really shine and their life experience shows in some of the interview questions . Unfortunately it is quite easy to spot those who have coached answers eg talking about beneficence, malfeasance .

Natural communicators are at an advantage and those with something to talk about eg a genuine hobby , working in a burger bar even more so.

Perhaps it is these candidates communication skills and lack of opportunities to engage with general public that is letting them down.

You're saying the black kids are doing better at the expense of the white kids

Agree, I thought it was an odd (ok, Reform type) position to take.

I'm going to read your message entirely at face value, and assume no subtext at all, and ask what is it, do you think, that the white boys are doing wrong, that the girls and the boys from other ethnic backgrounds doing better at interview? Are they relaxed, polite, articulate, respectful, engaged and interesting? Is it a confidence thing? Do they clam up in the interview, whereas the girls and not white boys keep the conversation going smoothly? Of all careers, a dentist needs a stellar bedside manner, and I'm always amazed at how endlessly kind and friendly the dentists at the big surgery I go to are (I have only been seen by Asian, female dentists there, for what it's worth).

White working class boys do worse than any other ethnic or social group in this country, as they tend to be the least motivated/pushed/encouraged at home. Does this ring a bell for these boys? Although you say that there's a good cohort of middle class parents in this kind of career already at your school, so perhaps not?

Clearly these boys need to up their game on their social skills, and that's not necessarily your responsibility, but I do see how it must be frustrating when they're doing everything else right.

If their academics are exceptional and UCAT is high, they’re not doing well enough at interview. If they’re getting all the support you suggest, are they over coached or overconfident? The implication of your parent occupations suggested a middle class catchment, so overconfident middle class boys tanking their interview sounds a likely issue.
is the careers advice they receive accurate? Not all of those courses accept resits.

Not true.
Bangladeshi boys do worse.

Having had two white sons look for jobs in London after very good degrees and getting feedback from them - yes, discrimination against white males is rampant

I think this is true too Ceramiq

So basically, you’re accusing universities of discriminating against white boys?

You don’t know what goes on in the interviews or other university selection processes so your assumption is pretty evidence-free.

This is interesting because when my boy was thinking about vet med in particular they said they had so many girls apply being a boy would make him stand out.

I guess the questions is do any non white non males also fail to get in? And what % are white males?

If it's anecdata you think is useful, my white ds or his white male friends haven't had any problems....

If it's actual data you want, a lower proportion of BAME grads get grad level jobs compared to their white peers.

And OP, please don't refer to kids as 'ethnic'.

Having done career fairs at schools perhaps some of these candidates come across as arrogant? Don’t have the soft skills or might benefit from working in customer service for a while?

I expect your unconscious bias is making you feel the white lads are being discriminated on a level playing field because they have lost their unearned advantage and they now have competition.

Or it could be your conscience bias talking.

Have you looked at the evidence? Real evidence not just anecdotal?

If your sons are blaming discrimination instead of an incredibly tight job market and the possibility they lost out to people who did better at interview than them or held better qualifications, I think I can see the problem.

Yep, as the saying goes, when you're used to privilege, equality looks like oppression.

They didn't lose out - they have fantastic jobs. But they could pick up on the discrimination very easily indeed, both during recruitment and at work.

Isn't the actual problem for Medics, Dentists and Vets that we need more of them all. There should be no problem for all highly intelligent and driven young people getting jobs in these fields. THAT is the actual scandal.

They didn't lose out - they have fantastic jobs. But they could pick up on the discrimination very easily indeed, both during recruitment and at work.

What did that discrimination actually look like? What specific examples did they give?

Discrimination is real and cuts in all directions. I worked in one all female team and every man who joined only lasted a couple of years. My male friend was excluded from many socials and slowly starved of decent work.

It happens - women aren't perfect! 🙄

Of course it happens.

However, I'm heavily involved in graduate recruitment and careers and employability and I'd like to hear about specific examples of white men being discriminated against as the previous poster suggested it was a widespread issue. 🤷🏼‍♀️

I have a number of white sons in a similar age group and none has complained of discrimination anywhere, ever. I don't buy this at all. Also from the South West where the OP's experience doesn't reflect that of our sixth form either.

@westerdays there was an interesting article in the FT on 19th Feb titled "UK Medical students flock to Bulgaria amid scarcity of college places back home". There are a couple of agencies helping prospective medical and dental students apply to courses there. They are cheaper (though unfortunately not eligible for UK student loans) and have a lower entry grade profile.

One of the problems is the very high drop out rate for many of the courses taught in English abroad. It’s around 80% for the medical/dental course in Prague.

Not being eligible for all sorts of invitations to meet with prospective employers. In the end, straight white boys end up ticking the "lesbian" box on the invitation in order to get a foot in the door. Self-identification is OK, right?

And, once at a (prestigious) firm, getting sidelined for the best projects by DEI officers with a massive chip on their shoulder.

My son (Cambridge undergrad) has been applying for internships - the civil service wouldn't let white boys apply for some of them. I didn't believe him but he sent me the screenshot - you had to be a) in your second or third year at uni b) BAME c) have been a recipient of free school meals or come from a school in an underprivileged area.

We have a fabulous grad working for us this year at work who happens to be black - he joked that all of his (white) peers on the course said he'd walk into jobs because of the discrimination against white people....

My DH worked in a very woke industry (he was made redundant last year and has done over 400 applications - every post he's interviewed for has gone to a woman). At his previous company, his Asian boss sat in meetings and said that "under no circumstances are any more F*ing white men being promoted". Imagine if he'd said that about any other denomination. A friend of mine's husband is very senior in a large consulting firm and was trying to move upwards but was told (off the record) that they won't promote any men. The city has such strong diversity quotas that another friend (male, white) who has been out of work for a year, has been told by recruiters that they will put him forward but it's unlikely he will be picked over a woman....

People may not want to accept it, but it is happening - anecdatally at least.

In the case of medics and dentists - it is a national scandal that we don't have enough training contracts/uni places here so that they are having to go abroad to be trained, whilst we drain other countries of their medical professionals and ours are flocking to Oz/Canada etc. That really does need to be fixed.