AIBU - gutted for them regarding early entry subject rejections (non-oxbridge)

[westerdays]

I teach a STEM subject at sixth form level. in the South West of the UK.
I'm also involved in the UCAS process for our school's applicants.

Our school extends support to would be medics/dentists/vets etc who don't get a uni place on those type of courses first time round.

Some pupils resit an A Level (or 2), some just need reassurance that many very able applicants do take more than one UCAS application to get a place or advise on their chances given their UCAT score/likelihood of increasing that score, or a realistic opinion on their chances.

I've noticed that the non ethnic lads at our school are having the toughest time securing places to study medicine/dentistry/vet sci, no matter how good their academic track record or how high their UCAT score, the interview performance seems to trounce all of that. I had one lad who, having applied for a third and final time for dentistry last year was rejected again post interview. He's going abroad to study dentistry and his plan is then to return and work his way through all the processes required of "non uk trained" dentists before they can fully practice dentistry in the uk. He's always been an extremely able all-rounder and I have no doubt that he'll pick up enough of the local language quickly enough to assist with his studies.
We're fortunate enough to have enough parents who are doctors/dentists/pharmacists/vets etc volunteering to do multiple practice interviews, but it's generally the girls/ethnically diverse boys who seem to have most chance of getting the offers after interviews these days even though our "mock interview panels" haven't found any major distinguishing factors between many of our school's applicants when it comes to feedback to aid interview performance in the real thing.

My son (Cambridge undergrad) has been applying for internships - the civil service wouldn't let white boys apply for some of them. I didn't believe him but he sent me the screenshot - you had to be a) in your second or third year at uni b) BAME c) have been a recipient of free school meals or come from a school in an underprivileged area.

What you actually mean is the CS has some internships specifically aimed at those from low-participation backgrounds.

Why do you /he think he should be able to apply for those?

@Ceramiq it's highly likely the problem here is much closer to home.

I have literally dozens of examples from my sons and their friends. Since they were looking for jobs a few years ago now it is pretty easy to see that the discriminatory hiring practices have backfired. But they still had to fight them at the time.

No, all summer internships were only for the stated categories. You couldn't apply to any of the organisations (there were about 5) unless you met the criteria I stated. (It was actually mentioned in the national press.)

If these boys were claiming to be lesbians, I'm not surprised employers didn't want to know. It doesn't exactly reflect well on them.

By claiming to be lesbians they got their foot in the door.

So the employer went for the white males even when they had a specific EDI scheme for lesbians? Doesn't exactly scream discrimination against white men, does it?

I've name changed for this.

DH is an equity partner in a law firm. Their HR team has been actively told to do the following:

1. Give preference to BME and LGBT candidates
2. Not to promote themselves with independent schools (they do with all state schools in the city)
3. Not to move forward with degree apprenticeship applications from independent schools

Its quite shocking when it should always be solely about the best candidate for the job.

This thread is making me want to bang my head somewhere hard.

It's like Donald Trump is here with us.

Its quite shocking when it should always be solely about the best candidate for the job

Employers want a diverse workforce because research consistently shows that diverse teams perform better than homogenous ones. And teams end up being homogenous because hiring managers tend to appoint people like themselves. So the kind of policy you describe is a business decision, presumably because the company lacks the diversity and agility that it needs to be successful.

I cannot imagine that your sixth form experience with people previously rejected from dentistry/medicine courses provides a large enough sample size to draw any valid conclusions.

Which is fine but that is actively discriminatory and unlawful

So you support discrimination - just against a particular group? If you don't even consider applications from a demographic, then potentially, you aren't appointing the best person for the job, but because they tick a box?

Way back when, when I was in a minority as a woman in a very male dominated profession, the partners suggested having quotas and only promoting women. We all voted against because we knew that the men would then say we were only there because we were women, not because it was on merit.

And I think that report about diverse teams was a McKinsey study and it's not been proven to be true.

Research shows whatever the people who fund the research want it to show. The evidence for diverse teams is flimsy.

Actually they were claiming to be transbians. Which of course was extremely convenient for the employers who could then hire the white males they felt were best for the job all along!

PP did not say these were specific internships. I was reading this as any internships.

There are a lot of similar cases in both recruitment and uni admissions.

I'd be very careful about dismissing OP's and other posters views - such dismissive attitudes lead to Trump and Reform coming into power.

No, not at all. It's like Donald Trump will be with us unless we do something. These are real examples. I've seen them as well. For disclosure - I'm not white.

I do Oxbridge admissions and what the OP says is actually true - in my subject we are being told to actively discriminate against white privately educated boys.

I’ve always been keen to admit a diverse and varied intake, but I am not keen on deliberately rejecting good candidates for political reasons either, and I get in an argument with our admissions staff each year about this now.

I’ve namechanged for this as too outing but I would caution against reacting in an OTT way against the OP or accusing her of racism/bias/Trumpism or whatever. It is definitely happening in universities at the moment - to different degrees in different places - but I would not discount what she says. I’m leftwing and no reform voter and it’s concerning to me that some good candidates are actually being rejected not because of their ability but because of their background. Obviously background is all part of the mix and should be taken into account, but it’s become a dominating factor recently over the candidate’s actual ability, skill or achievement.

@cityofgirls

Thank you for sharing this, it's a well know fact in PS world, to the point they stopped applying.

I'm puzzled as to why people don't see that this overcorrection is as bad as the original discrimination and will backfire at some stage. Why Trump's lesson isn't learned and why we aren't scared it will play out here as well?

I am mixed race but only via one grandparent and I look white. I always say I’m white. So do my children. I’m actually wondering whether I should tell them to declare their mixed ethnicity just to make sure they are not discriminated against.

how things have changed!

Many mothers of mediocre males hold steadfastly to the belief that their their little darlings are discriminated against.

Of course, that 'big job' should have been theirs. Under no circumstance, should any future partner expect these fabulous sons to do their fair share of housework.

What a fatuous comment.

The discrimination in recruitment and education currently, as evidenced by people in various situations on this thread - some with real life examples rather than those of us with anecdata and experience, has nothing whatsoever to do with whether boys can do their fair share of housework.

(All four of my children, three of them boys have been taught to look after themselves and chip in at home with all of the household tasks - something that they have seen modelled by their father)

This country has a shortage of medics.
We don’t let kids who want to be medics study in the UK despite the correct grades due to lack of places. But they can do a different non medical degree which won’t necessarily get them a job.

Then we ‘steal’ medics from other countries who paid to train them (and in some instances they are not correctly qualified).
Insane.

I hope the boys like the new country and provide an excellent service to the locals who appreciate their skills.

When I’ve done career fairs the girls (at 17) were mostly clear, calm and had good communication skills. Many of the boys were arrogant or very awkward. Massive generalisation of course but I can see why some boys wouldn’t get a job over another candidate.

As a mixed race person I'm surprised you say this