Cardiff Maths: big trouble

[poetryandwine]

Further to a recent thread about the potential closure of the School of Nursing at Cardiff, I sadly report that the School of Mathematics may be headed for a similar fate. Of course, in both cases plans are still at the consulting stage.

The School of Mathematics currently has 30 permanent staff. It meets its undergraduate targets and, crucially in these times, returns a net profit to the financially stricken university. The aim is to incorporate 15-20 permanent staff into a School of Data Science, Computing Science and Mathematics, by compulsory redundancy if necessary. This would make Cardiff the only Russell Group University without a School of Mathematics.

It is obvious that 15-20 cannot do the work of 30, all the more so when some of their work will be diverted to provision of Data Science degrees (usually a joint degree between CS and Maths). I have been recommending a consideration of DS for a while on this board and will continue to do so, but in naming the new School the University has got things backwards - it is following trends in the shallowest way.

Thousands of mathematicians from the UK and around the world, led by the Presidents of the European Mathematical Society, the London Mathematical Society, a large number of Fields medallists, FRS, etc, are already protesting to the University. If this goes through, Wales will lose its only SoM of international heft at a time when it is already experiencing a shortage of secondary Maths teachers. This flies directly in the face of the national numeracy strategy published in 2023.

You can learn more by searching

walesonline cardiff mathematics

Edit: The Welsh national numeracy strategy

Thank you for highlighting this @poetryandwine . Is there any indication, as far as you are aware, that the consultation will be meaningful, evidence based and informing the decision, or is it in reality already a done deal?

https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/university-liverpool-looking-cut-staff-31022034

Also worrying

Aren’t they also potentially classics/ancient history and music? I thought they were just going down non STEM but that’s awful.

Thanks, @boys3 . From my limited knowledge the staff in both Nursing and Maths seem to think it is a done deal. The plans for the new School sound rather specific, don’t they?

Yes, @MrsElijahMikaelson1
Losing those subjects is also awful and makes one wonder about their notion of a university. But the powers that be can answer with a fiscal case. Maths turns a profit!

I think it's not just Cardiff - I have friends who work at USW and CMET and they are both rationalising - directorates are changing for example, 3 become 1 with 1 director and a reduced staff.

Both are offering VS with CS expected

I look after nursing students from Cardiff in my role and they've not been told if they can actually complete their courses. Cardiff failed to get their PG courses accredited by the NMC last year yet USW and Swansea were both successful - thoughts were then that do you actually need 3 universities in the same area offering nursing? Cardiff also couldn't fill their March cohort

Yes, it is. I don’t minimise this but it is not uncommon. Compulsory redundancy still sends shock waves however.

Thank you for the link

Wow, I had not realised Cardiff Nursing had accreditation problems. Sadly that side of things makes a bit more sense now.

CR in Maths does not. I think that is why the national and international response has been so great, within the community. (DH is a mathematician)

"Consultations" are nearly always a done deal in Wales. This is very bad news.

@poetryandwine the standards for specialist qualifications changed from September 2024.

The universities had to submit their course structure etc to the NMC to get accredited (additional qualifications can mean additional annotations on someone's registration). Cardiff's course was rejected on a number of points but both USW and Swansea were approved

In fairness... Maths isn't being lost, is it?
The University clearly need to save money - would you be OK with them cutting the 30 staff to 20 but them retaining the status of a standalone school of maths?

I'm guessing the issue is they are not recruiting enough students to support the number of staff. Ultimately if there was a clear cut case of this school having a healthy bottom line the university would not be considering merging it, they don't just do that for shits and giggles.

Merging with other subject areas is likely more about sharing admin staff etc across schools. If the numbers on courses have got smaller it makes no sense for small intakes to each have a full set of admin staff when by creating a broader school they can achieve some economies of scale.

Universities have all become too big and expensive and to some extent we simply have to accept the sector shrinking somewhat.

And MFL I think

The School returns a profit to the University.

The maths school might but they still need to save money as they're in an overall deficit as a university - merging schools and cutting down on staff is one way to do this

There can be mergers without compulsory redundancies, especially when the Schools in question are meeting their student targets and returning profits to the University. However this tends to affect the student experience (amongst other things)as it becomes more formal when everything is done at scale.

Good question, @Sunnysideup4eva I think the profession is concerned about this particular merger, rather than possibly a different kind of merger, and the compulsory redundancies. There are, or have been in the recent past, strong Schools of Mathematics and Computer Science around the world. The fact that the title of the proposed new school begins with Data Science strikes many as gimmicky.

It is if a School of Nutrition and a School of Cookery were being merged, whilst the sexy new thing in food was Asian Foods. In this hypothetical scenario, suppose one could generally get a degree in a School of Nutrition or Cookery or jointly whilst doing a degree in Asian Foods. A university proposes to merge its successful Nutrition and Cookery Schools and title the new school Asian Food, Nutrition and Cookery. The name suggests that the fundamental topics of nutrition and cookery are now secondary to Asian foods.

Cart before the horse, right?

So yes, @Sunnysideup4eva , it does seem there is a definite whiff of ‘shits and giggles’ about this particular merger. The worldwide subject leaders contacting the university about this development are hard headed and well aware if the challenging fiscal environment dor UK universities. They haven’t put their good names to a protest lightly.

Paraphrase: Hypothetical scenario above is to do a degree on the subject of Asian Food in either School. Badly worded

Nit-picking slightly, but this statement ("This would make Cardiff the only Russell Group University without a School of Mathematics.") isn't 100% accurate. There's at least one other Russell Group University which no longer has a 'School of Mathematics' (although that merger and its consequences aren't as bad as this one).

Sorry, @xxuserxx Which one?

I know some think of Leicester as RG+ and they fired their entire Pure Maths Group a few years back, making no bones of the fact that applied bring in more dosh. Or is it a different university?

Why train nurses when you can ship them in from all over and their families - makes me so angry

Sheffield has merged Maths, Physics & Astronomy, and Chemistry into a School of Mathematical & Physical Sciences: https://www.sheffield.ac.uk/mps

Thanks, @xxuserxx . Manchester has done something similar. Maths and other former Schools in the Faculty of Science and Engineering are now Departments in the School of Science or the School if Engineering.

The aim was to provide the savings PP have discussed above. My friends there say the burden on students and staff is significant. However the former Schools are now independent Departments within the two new Schools and the academic structure seems unchanged from what little I’ve heard. Perhaps the joining up at Sheffield is similar?

I think Manchester may have done some VS but I am not aware of compulsory redundancies. Not sure about Sheffield.

Overseas nurses don't automatically get a PIN - often they need additional training to work here

It is bad everywhere.

We’re expecting the hammer to fall at Bangor tomorrow. We’re in VR and have been told not enough people have taken it up.

This will be our 4th “restructure” in 10 years and the “restructures” are increasingly bizarre to justify the redundancies.

I expect CR. It feels like the pieces are in place.

@poetryandwine Im think out loud here - and fully prepared to be totally wrong - but are students preferring stem courses with direct routes to employment? I know MN is full of academics who think everyone should study for the love of a pure subject, but is this replicated in the student body? Are students preferring CS, data science, economics etc with their FM A levels? Cardiff would not be top division in maths and I think Welsh mathematicians can easily go elsewhere. Maths in some universities isn’t that competitive. It’s only highly competitive at the elite (MN) end.

Regarding nursing. It’s cheaper to run 2 university departments and not 3. I think the Welsh government determines numbers of nurses to be trained as Wales gives bursaries. Maybe that’s the underlying problem?