Cardiff Maths: big trouble

[poetryandwine]

Further to a recent thread about the potential closure of the School of Nursing at Cardiff, I sadly report that the School of Mathematics may be headed for a similar fate. Of course, in both cases plans are still at the consulting stage.

The School of Mathematics currently has 30 permanent staff. It meets its undergraduate targets and, crucially in these times, returns a net profit to the financially stricken university. The aim is to incorporate 15-20 permanent staff into a School of Data Science, Computing Science and Mathematics, by compulsory redundancy if necessary. This would make Cardiff the only Russell Group University without a School of Mathematics.

It is obvious that 15-20 cannot do the work of 30, all the more so when some of their work will be diverted to provision of Data Science degrees (usually a joint degree between CS and Maths). I have been recommending a consideration of DS for a while on this board and will continue to do so, but in naming the new School the University has got things backwards - it is following trends in the shallowest way.

Thousands of mathematicians from the UK and around the world, led by the Presidents of the European Mathematical Society, the London Mathematical Society, a large number of Fields medallists, FRS, etc, are already protesting to the University. If this goes through, Wales will lose its only SoM of international heft at a time when it is already experiencing a shortage of secondary Maths teachers. This flies directly in the face of the national numeracy strategy published in 2023.

You can learn more by searching

walesonline cardiff mathematics

I am so sorry, @OwAla

Times are grim everywhere but four restructures in 10 years sounds like management problems.

I hope you will be all right

Nursing applications are dropping like a stone nationwide so this makes sense. Nobody wants to work for a pittance for the shit show of the nhs. I imagine more nursing courses will fold and then in 10 years time we'll wonder why we have even less staff and more vacancies in healthcare than what we currently do.

The merging of schools and colleges within universities now is not new and yes, doesn't mean the course itself will go. Less heads of school, less deputy heads of school, less associate profs, less admin, etc, etc.

I literally couldn't even tell you the name of the school I work in now, never mind the college! I do thankfully remember the name of the university as that seems to be the only thing which stays the same!

Interesting post, @TizerorFizz

Maths doesn’t offer the same well defined pathways as the TE subjects (with exceptions like Financial Maths and Actuarial Science) but graduates are highly employable. The Campaign for Mathematical Sciences puts Maths amongst the top 3 STEM subjects for employability, and I remember an MIT alumni survey a few years back where Maths pipped CS for top starting salaries amongst new graduates, around $120K IIRC.

You are correct that overall enrolments are down but brief research shows that is at lower tariff universities. Cardiff Maths is consider high tariff -though again you are correct that the top Welsh students may be best served in England or Scotland. However Cardiff is the ideal place to train for secondary Maths teaching in Wales, which is badly needed.

If Cardiff Maths had been doing something wrong or even been given warning to up its game, this would be more understandable.

@CerealPosterHere permanent staff, already worked to the bone, will be cut by 33-50%. This is not just a merger. My sense is that absent the redundancies, people could tolerate the type of merger you, I and others have talked about, that is happening elsewhere.

That would be the School of CS and Maths. The School of Data Science, CS and Maths is, as I said before, nothing but a gimmick. The existing programmes, half staffed, will become secondary as I explained above.

@poetryandwine I think the changes are pandering to student perception of how an academic subject relates to work. Some students just won’t see maths as more employable than CS for example. I think maths is broader and grads can go in many directions but I’m not sure all 17/18 year olds see this.

I think we have lots of parents and advisers who don’t see the value of a pure subject either. As an example in my wider family - a dc did environmental science because teachers advised it as very employable. Why not Geography which has many wider applications? No work found in Env science nearly 2 years after graduating. However the lure of alleged employability was stronger than “old fashioned” geography and they poked fun at Oxford for not offering Env Science. I think advice like this puts students off pure science subjects and leads to new subjects being pushed.

I had to google the name of my college the other day to fill in an internal form 😒

I get that staff cuts mean more than just a merger but ultimately that’s the aim. It’s shit and the student experience and teaching will be affected. We lost 2/5th of academics on my course. We’ve reduced teaching time, etc to manage. Do less seems to be the aim. But obviously the NSS is expected to be fine every year 🫣

You are right, I don't like the proposed School name at all. Data science is a subset of Computer Science, the School should be called School of Computer Science and Mathematical Sciences (or similar).

There is no Cardiff school of nursing for example - it's part of the school of healthcare science and has been for a long time - it includes OT and radiography which are very different - doesn't affect perceptions at all

USW nursing is faculty of life science and education

Merging of schools is so common

Economies of scale

Agreed, @RockGirl

I think you are right about the pandering, @TizerorFizz

Did your School or unit undergo compulsory redundancies, @CerealPosterHere ?

I as well as the many academic leaders, peers of the realm, Fields medallists, etc who have written to Cardiff have a decent grasp of the concept of consolidation to obtain economies of scale, thanks very much. This is what Sheffield and Manchester and probably others have done. They may no longer have Schools of Mathematics, but the structure formerly known as SoM has not changed academically, only administratively. Did academic eminences protest? No.

Cardiff with its CR and up to 50% shrinkage of academic staff is very different.

@poetryandwine What are their recruitment numbers looking like though? No one gets upset at MFL shrinking. Mathematicians have so many choices of courses. Maybe that’s also an issue?

Sorry to be thick, @TizerorFizz . Do you mean mathematicians have a great choice if course? These are almost all offered within SoM or jointly.

Or do you mean they may be equally interested in similar disciplines? I honestly don’t know about that

I meant the latter. If you take MFLs at A level you probably want a MFL degree. There’s not a massive choice. If you take maths with a couple more sciences, look at the vast number of degrees on offer. I do know we have way more scientists than MFL students but I think some courses have diluted and separated out too much. So too many courses are chasing the same students.

There’s no reason why engineers and mathematicians cannot become software designers. Or accountants. Or auditors. Same with maths grads. Then there’s all the courses that are designed for accountants and finance bods as well as all the CS and offshoot degrees. It just feels there’s too much choice so is this affecting recruitment to pure academic courses? No evidence - just a hunch.

@poetryandwine my school certainly had VR and pretty much compulsory. Teams were told x amount from each team needed to go and then individuals were given the unofficial off the record nod that if they didn’t take VR it would be them specifically who would get made compulsory redundant. So jumped before pushed.

Very sorry to hear this, @CerealPosterHere

How has research been affected by the cutbacks? Do you anticipate an impact on the next REF (or was there one in 2021)?

Regardless, it sounds very very grim. Gently, you sound almost resigned. I am from a different culture but (although I may have read you wrong) I think we should be fighting. Wish I could admire UCU

Interesting ideas, @TizerorFizz

I think the UGs interested in eg Maths and Accountancy degrees likely have little overlap, even though they may end up in similar careers. But that is an extreme example. Certainly many mathematics and engineering graduates do become software designers.

I suspect that many Maths, Physics, CS and certain Engineering graduates choose their UG disciplines by following their tastes and aptitudes. There will certainly be a pragmatic element of varying degree, but on the whole I daresay it is less than amongst students of Accountancy, Business Studies and even Economics. I write this knowing students with an absolute passion for each of these subjects, particularly Economics. I am possibly biased because DF truly loved Mech Eng.

But how do they choose between these disciplines, when the CS and Engin are the pragmatic choices for a career? (We’ve seen above that Maths is actually a great choice, but few know that going in) Excellent questions

To be honest research was affected before. I haven’t done any research or scholarly activity since 2017. Thankfully am on a teaching only contract but I’m meant to do something like 200 hours scholarly activity a year. Total joke as I don’t have time for it. At least my boss has stopped asking. They also appear to have stopped the annual workload planning meetings…I suspect because I’d be well over 100%, probably 150%!

The world of academic music has been up in arms on X and other social media platforms about closure of Music at Cardiff.