Help. Son has Cambridge offer but wants to start again

[Bobcat2]

My son decided quite early in Y12 that he’d gone down the wrong path with his A levels. He’s taking geography, maths, history and politics. He’s predicted A stars in all. He had 6 9s and 3 8s at GCSE from a comprehensive with pretty poor GCSE results.

He has just received an offer to read geography at Cambridge and we thought this might settle him down, but he’s still wishing he’d done physics and either chemistry and biology, and is thinking of trying to do these in a year and apply in September for natural sciences.

We’re not sure if any of this is feasible (2 a levels in a year, which is less than a year!) and also applying for natural sciences with very little time actually having been spent studying the two new A levels he would need. He’s pretty determined and focused but it all seems a tall order and a bit mad to us. Would really value any insights.

Despite doing history and politics, it’s the human geography side that he thinks he won’t enjoy and would rather be doing the earth sciences etc side of geography with maths and physics alongside. If starting again will essentially mean two years until he can go to university, I think he’ll realise he needs to take up the offer (grades notwithstanding). Thanks

As someone who works in geosciences, we do have people come in from a geography/geology/geophysics type direction, also MSc's are available to move into a more scientific/engineering side. Should he be looking at Geology?

I’d echo this. A geography undergrad at Cambridge followed by a more geology masters could be a great way to go. Encourage him to think forwards to his career options. A very mathsy geography degree with lots of physical science options is unlikely to close off many doors.

Hi, sorry to jump on this thread.

Do you mind me asking how your son did the A level in a year? Did he have to go private? Where did he do this?

We looked into this before and it was very expensive

We had a similar experience. My DD is at Oxford reading MFL with the idea of then going to the Bar. She got a deferred offer and headed off overseas and then a month before heading up to Oxford ie 14 months after A Levels she suddenly announced she wanted to drop MFL and do Law. Her reason was due to talking to a friend who was the year above her at Oxford whose spoken skills hadn't improved and deciding there was little point doing MFL. She approached Oxford who of course said she couldn't switch to Law.

We had a really good chat about why she'd chosen MFL. And that changing to Law would take at least a year with reapplying to UCAS plus the LNET while a conversion course would only take a year so no time saving. In the end she headed to Oxford to the course she had an offer on and absolutely loves it and is flourishing academically.

I think talking to some tutors, looking at the quantitative modules etc may encourage your DS that geography has a huge range of possibilities.

Hi, OP -

So much great advice above!

To add to the excellent post from @neverthelastone , I would just mention that although FM is not technically a requirement, Cambridge say thst about 92% of recent Nat Sci cohorts on the Physical Sciences Pathway (which I assume your DS is discussing, because he is highlighting Physics) have it. So it may as well be a requirement, because they are going to offer quite a rushed summary of this material and those who don’t already know it well will be at a disadvantage.

Our STEM students are not quite of Cambridge calibre but we are in the next tier and we see this all the time. Without a solid Maths foundation, everything is a struggle.

It would be three more A levels, then; teo years because of the timings PP have pointed out. A bespoke exam and the very real possibility of no Cambridge offer at the end.

I agree that very bright DC can have an especially hard time deciding. They can become obsessed with the idea that the perfect course and university for their talents, career interests, and lifestyle preferences is vital to their future. It isn’t. Generally, cream rises.

This is not to deny the importance of a good fit, which is what I usually bang on about on this Board. However from what you have told us it sounds like your DS is having last minute doubts for one reason or another, to do with the lack of a perfect fit that he won’t find anywhere. I think the suggestions to take advantage of the flex offered by Cambridge and plan on doing an MSc are brilliant.

Best wishes to DS.

Has he looked, really looked, at the second and third year syllabus?

I did Cambridge Physical NatSci back in the dark ages, but this stuff is more relevant to what I do today:

'In the third year, students study four papers from a choice of twelve. There is no requirement to balance human and physical options; it is common for students to take a mixture of both. The precise papers on offer vary from year to year but current and recent papers include:

• Geographies of the Cryosphere
• From Earth Observations to the Climate System
• Glaciology
• Volcanology
• Life within Limits: Science for climate and ecological futures
• Biogeography: Biological Processes and Environmental Change'

I've missed off the more political and human options, important though they are. It still leaves plenty for a physical-biased student to choose from.

(I'd argue that Glaciology and 'the Cryosphere' could be rolled into one -- but I'm not the expert here)

Big alarm bells at your son having suddenly decided he wants to start all over again, but he wasn’t even planning to go to the offer day? Surely that is a very obvious way of finding out more information to help him make his decision, one way or the other?

It seems odd to me that he is so obviously very bright yet unable to see the value in this. There is absolutely nothing to lose by going. Does he have a history of panicking and making rash decisions? Is his mental health OK?

Great points here and I absolutely agree from personal experience on the further maths thing. It’s really really hard on physical natsci without it. They either assume further maths OR the ability to basically just do further maths with very little teaching.

Does he have an idea of what he wants to do work wise? If he really wants to go a science route then it may be worth an extra year to get the right degree. Or a foundation year?

now I have academic fomo. I wish I’d done physical geography but I did maths and physics. I’m sure he can get into a sciency masters if he chooses the right modules at undergrad and I honestly think geography will be more useful.
do you think he’s feeling like it’s not “hard science” enough compared to his friends?

If he's interested in both sciences and humanities then Geography is a really good degree to do at Cambridge. Also Arch & Anth, which I did, as I'm a straddler too. A good friend of mine was a geographer—the course is extremely diverse with lots of modules and directions to go in after the first year.

Once again, thank you all for your replies and insights. I think there’s an element of STEM inferiority TBH, assisted by his friends who have spotted his Achilles heal and like to irritate it! It’s not so much a sudden change - he realised relatively early but too late to completely change that he might have gone down the wrong A level path, although he has really enjoyed both history and politics and is clearly able in them. We as his parents certainly feel that geography will provide him with a great balance of learning and I think from all the replies we can fairly say to him that trying to pursue physical natsci at any university is going to be a very long haul. We also appreciate that ANY course at Cambridge is going to be very dense and he needs to enjoy what he’s doing. Totally agree with the comment about thinking there is a perfect/best route. He can be quite black and white about things. And I’ve told him that my life is littered with wrong turns and cul de sacs and has been all the richer for it. He hasn’t really got a clue career wise.

Does he appreciate the illogicality of having formed a black and white view without having gathered all the available information from the offer day?

Omg this bought back memories of my geology module - all I remember was some once alive fossil thing and the word 'anus' so many times....

@Bobcat2 From watching my DDs wobbles, I think the subject they choose in the first place is what they actually want to do, as long as they haven't been pushed into it by teachers/parents (happens to a lot doing medicine). I don't think that's the case here at all, so geography is probably the subject that he will enjoy the most, he's just panicking about the enormity of the decision, comparing himself to what everyone else is doing etc

(I'd argue that Glaciology and 'the Cryosphere' could be rolled into one -- but I'm not the expert here)

The Scott Polar Research Institute is part of the Cambridge geography department so I guess it's a particularly, er, hot area for them. Glaciers of course exist in non polar regions too... and the idea that geography is merely 'the study of the Earth' is outdated.

(I sent you a PM, @Bobcat2 , which might possibly pique your DSs interest).

OK, OP, thank you for clarifying that the doubts arose over time.

I have had a number of personal tutees vulnerable to this black and white thinking, so I sympathise. Encouraging data collection, to a point, is helpful - as long as it doesn’t become obsessive. Attending an Offer Holder Day is a great idea.

However the bottom line is the very significant risk that if DH pursues the Natural Sciences path, another Cambridge offer will not be forthcoming. This change of mind does not exactly speak to a long term passion for subject.

To me the most important question is, would DS prefer to do Geography at Cambridge, or Nat Sci elsewhere? Answering that will hopefully show the way forward.

Another thing that occurs to me is that if he thinks he wants to do 'Natural Sciences' vs a single science, I think there aren't a huge number of courses nowadays - quite a few that used to exist dont any more. There was a thread discussing this recently.

Natural Sciences (not just Cambridge) www.mumsnet.com/Talk/higher_education/5122134-natural-sciences-not-just-cambridge

Given that realistically it's unlikely he'd get a Cambridge NatSci place, do any of the available alternatives actually appeal more than camb. Geog with a physical slant?

One of our local colleges does ‘fast track’ A levels in one year. 2 fast track subjects = full time study so it’s free for school leavers. It’s tough but they’re very popular (especially the sciences) and with enough work + dedication a lot of students do very well.

One of DD’s close friends had a complete change of heart in the middle of her A levels and decided that she wanted to study medicine instead, rather than drama. She took a gap year, did fast track biology + chemistry and came out with 2 As. She’ll graduate from medical school next year! It’s not all doom and gloom.

I did geological sciences and found it was very chemistry and physics heavy in the first two years. The Cambridge geography degree looks like it give plenty of options on the physical side with cross over into geology.

OP, it sounds to me as if his friends are taking the piss out of geography being a "soft" subject, which happens a lot. I'm NOT saying it's a soft subject but there is that perception out there, dc's best friend is a geographer and has to put up with it all the time. But really does he want to go through all this upheaval or can he suck it up, in the knowledge pointed out by many on here that all sorts of scientific paths are open to him? Good luck with the decision, I had a dc who had a major wobble starting A-levels because they were a similarly talented and perfectionist all-rounder, it's hard for kids like that. They found the right Oxbridge subject but it's VERY niche.

My son finished last year reading Geography at Oxford - he was able to specialise and loved his options. I think Geographers soon learn to lean into the 'Colouring In' degree ribbing they get. In practice the subject involves considerable mental agility if you choose to do the inter disciplinary modules while also specialist more nerdy options available. I am sure the same is true at Cambridge.

My DD did similar but only needed to do one GCSE (Biology) for her new chosen course.
She used an online school with some tutor support and worked really hard but did badly - got a D and this is a child who rarely even got a B. We were very confused and so I did some research and found out that Biology is HUGELY dependant on exam technique rather than knowledge which may go some way to explain DD's unexpected result
Anyway, it actually turned out fine and she is on her desired course, doing well and is very happy but I do urge caution with self study for Biology at least.

GCSE biology is more information regurgitation than anything. I’d say that the average child could very easily self study it and do well, never mind a prospective Cambridge student. DD wasn’t a hard worker in the slightest at GCSE and still came out with a good grade. I’d say that the online school/tutor that you used for your DD wasn’t of the best standard.

The jump up to A level biology is very big however. It’s far harder, there is a huge amount to learn, the questions are more applied than factual and exam technique really matters. It has one of the highest retake rates for a reason!

Apologies I actually meant DD did A Level Biology indpendently, she had already got a 9 at GCSE