Maths workload at Oxford/Cambridge/Warwick/Imperial

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DD is in year 12 and keen on applying for a Maths degree. Her A levels are Maths, Further Maths, Physics and Computer Science. She will probably drop CS at the end of the year as she's not really enjoying the essay side of it.

She's predicted 3 A* in Maths, FM and Physics and has mostly 9s at GCSE. But she is dyslexic, and is noticeably slow in getting through her work. She has extra time in exams and definitely uses it.

I don't know anyone studying Maths at the above universities but I do have family friends who have studied Natural Sciences at Cambridge and Engineering at Cambridge, and I gather that the workload for these is very intense. I worry that that won't suit DD especially with her slow processing. One colleague of mine has a DC at Cambridge studying Natural Sciences and he does literally nothing but work.

I know everyone is different and I don't want to crush my DD's dreams (she is ambitious and would love to go to one of these universities) and I realise that the probability is that she wouldn't get in given how competitive it is. But does anyone have any insight into what the actual workload is like? Thanks in advance.

Warwick admit on their own website that the work is very heavy. Know someone who left the course. Maths at Cambridge is fiendishly difficult - know someone who did it and hated it. She'd be better at somewhere like Bath, where there is good SEN support. Let her apply where she wants and then you can discuss the offers.

She may be eligible for something like this or other similar events https://www.undergraduate.study.cam.ac.uk/events/women-maths-2024

Don't know any current students but women at Cambridge seem to do worse than men in getting firsts. Hopefully not the case everywhere.

My ds just had an offer for chemistry at Oxford. I searched "chem at Oxford" and found a YouTube video from a first year describing her workload. It was very helpful in learning what to expect.

She said she has 25 hrs a week contact time: lectures, labs, tutorials. Then another 25 hrs a week for work doing revision, lab reports, worksheets, etc.

So I would search YouTube with subject and uni and see what videos students have made.

This sounds like a case where Open Days could be really useful.

Make sure one of the questions asked of tutors/students is about support for special needs - dyslexia in particular.

The uni that seems most clued in and positive is likely the best choice.

Are you on Facebook? There is a Warwick parents group and there are lots of parents of prospective students on there asking current parents questions like this.

My DS (also dyslexic) is a first year doing maths at Cambridge. He has two hours of lectures six days per week (yes including Saturday) and an average of two supervisions per week. Supervisions are two students and one teacher. Last week he had a mock exam covering the first terms courses so he has also had small group sessions going over the exam questions for each subject. Term time is very very full on. Terms are short, only eight weeks of lectures so he is resident in college for 9 weeks each time (and then has to completely clear his room).

The other thing to know about Cambridge maths is STEP. The STEP exams are very hard and Cambridge set the grade boundaries such that only about half the offer holders get in. (I have a friend who did maths there a few years ago and he remarked that the example sheets which you have to do for the supervisions each week are similar in difficulty to STEP questions so it's a really tough course and I understand why they have the STEP entry requirement but it is brutal. STEP results come out on the same day as A levels so at that point about half of the offer holders discover they are going somewhere else.)

I don't mean to put you off, my DS is happy to be there! Best thing to do would be to go to the department open days in May and see what she thinks.

Lots of helpful points, thanks all. Yes open days clearly very important! I find the Cambridge offer system very brutal and hope she'd prefer elsewhere.

A difficult one, OP.

I wouldn’t discourage your DD because she knows herself best, but I think she should seek a lot of information on both workloads and Teaching and Learning methods in the Schools of Mathematics at these institutions, because your concerns are well placed.

Queries at Open Days are a good idea but DD may feel self conscious. I would encourage her to join The Student Room where she can ask very specific questions targeted to UG students ( and to dyslexic students or SEN students, etc) in these Schools. People are generally quite constructive in their replies.

Regarding Oxbridge: I think tutorials are usually two students and one academic, and there is some effort to match the students’ ability levels. But I would be surprised if their processing speeds were considered. Every academic will understand that a slow processing speed is no reflection on intelligence, but it is not clear how this will play out in tutorial - especially with a less experienced tutor (as many are) and perhaps an intellectually aggressive peer (as many are, particularly at Cambridge which has relatively few women in Maths). If this happens, how will DD feel and react?

I see tutorials, and keeping up with the workload, as the key issue. The PP who suggests looking at STEP papers to get an idea of difficulty at both Cambridge and Oxford had a great idea. Imagine being immersed in problems of this difficulty werk after week, and having to discuss your progress or lack thereof with your tutor. Regardless of intelligence, it isn’t for the faint of heart. Only certain personalities work well within this system.

IMO Imperial is not quite as difficult though the workload may be higher, and Warwick is not quite as difficult as Imperial. But they are all fierce.

Luckily one can apply to only 3 of the COWI institutions. (And remember, 80% of predicted grades are wrong with most being optimistic). As a former Russell Group STEM admissions tutor married to a Cambridge Maths alumni and RG Maths professor I would suggest roughly:

C or O

3 from amongst
Bath, Durham, Edinburgh, Imperial, St Andrews, Warwick (I may be forgetting some)

Lancaster or Glasgow or Loughborough for Insurance. This is crucial

All the Schools of Maths in the middle grouping are highly competitive. St A’s isn’t as research intensive but student satisfaction is outstanding and the acceptance rate is around 10-15%.

Lancaster and Glasgow are hidden gems. The SoM’s have high student satisfaction and outstanding research, both Top 10 ( with Glasgow tops in Scotland) in the last national research assessment. (BTW, U Glasgow is in a lovely part of town). Loughborough is internationally renowned for its STEM Teaching and Learning and its SEN education. Glasgow is RG and the other two, with Bath, are the + in RG+.

My instinct or memory like a PP’s says Bath is a good bet for a bright mathematician with SEN.

Best wishes to DD

My DC is also studying maths at Cambridge. What amazes me is that they only have 12 contact hours per week, plus one additional session with a tutor. Given the very short term length of just 8 weeks (compared to at least 10 weeks at other universities), I struggle to see the advantages or support they receive from the university.

So glad you asked this OP as I have a DC in a similar position; exceptional GCSEs, predicted a stars in maths and further maths and As in other 2 A level subjects, yet, according to their very academic school, "not the strongest of mathematicians we have seen". Key for me is that I want their university years to be about more than just work - it's about life experiences and growing up too - and I want them to enjoy it, not just survive it.

They applied to Oxford and didn't get an interview despite good MAT and the exceptional GCSEs and I confess I was quietly relieved. They have offers from Bath and Durham, plus another they're not considering, and should get a Warwick offer based on their TMUA. I'm quietly hoping they might go for Bath or Durham even though I know the "head" decision should probably be Warwick. And they don't have dyslexia either, it's just that whilst they are great at maths, they don't live, breathe and dream it to the exclusion of all else.

As ever, @poetryandwine gives great advice and I can only say that in your shoes I'd encourage your DC to think about what else matters to them in life other than maths. If there is anything, then, given the added challenge of slow processing, perhaps COWI isn't the be all and end all.

Yes I agree the Warwick parents fb page is really helpful. Maths at Warwick is really tough, it's for the dedicated mathematicians who are prepared to work all the time.

Hi again, OP -

I want to apologise for perhaps sounding gloomier than usual above.

It was nothing to do with your DD. I do find the very long trend of women lagging statistically, in terms of both UG numbers and degree classifications, at Cambridge Maths depressing. But of course individual women can and do excel.

Similarly your DD has as good a chance ad anyone - or anyone at her school - of having accurate PGs.

When I asked how she would feel about sharing her struggles with her tutor (because it’s that or go mute), or how she would feel about a rather aggressive co-tutee, I wasn’t assuming any particular answer, or even thinking that you should report back. I just meant that these are the kinds of things DD needs to think very honestly about within herself.

My subject is Maths intensive and university level Maths elicits a huge range of reactions from students. Much of this is based in the fact that it is so different from what’s been learnt previously. With her extra challenges DD needs to go into her degree programme with her eyes open.

Thank you all for taking the trouble to answer and especially @poetryandwine for your detailed responses.

Lots to think about! DD is confident (but not arrogant) and is finding school maths quite unchallenging at the moment — she’s top of a fairly big year (in a good comp) but I don’t think she has much of a concept of quite how challenging university maths will be.

She is definitely not someone who lives and breathes maths so she sounds like your DC @NeedingCoffee. In fact she is involved in a school production over some of the key open day dates so that kind of symbolises things for me…

Anyway, lots to think about. Thanks again.

something i remember my nephew telling me about the Cambridge maths open day was that they said they expect people to live and breathe maths. Not sure how true that is in reality as he is still in sixth form, hears this week if he’s got a place.

DS is doing maths at Cambridge and I've a friend who teaches it at Oxford. Said friend remarked the other week "but surely he should be spending all his time doing maths" and I laughed - DS like me can't work 100% solidly on one single thing for very long. He's finding it hard to get the balance right. Getting a dose of flu or similar in the middle of first year derailed him for a while.

But he definitely noticed in 1st year how much greater the workload was for friends doing NatSci.

I'd recommend your daughter look seriously at the STEP preparation work that Cambridge offers online, if she isn't already. It will help her generally, and potentially help guide her choices a little.

(writing all this has reminded me I'm a little nervous that he's wanted in the band for a drama production in the Easter holidays. Hoping that they can minimise the time he's needed for so he can study!)

Keep an eye out for summer schools - in DD's year, both Murray Edwards and St John's (both Cambridge) ran summer schools for year 12 girls considering applying for maths. DD enjoyed it very much. (She did apply, got an offer, but was quite happy that it was still only a 50% chance of getting in. She didn't, but we all think that was probably for the best, as she's happy being on a slightly more relaxed course.)

My 22 year old son did computer science at Warwick and worked 9 to 5 every day, often weekends too. He had grade A A level maths but said the maths modules in computer science were unbelievablely hard. His friend did maths and a maths masters at Bath and seems to have done well.

I will say that whilst the top universities are great for your CV and self esteem, teaching isn't always that good. Lecturers can be too focused on research and writing g books and papers. Consider some of the lesser universities they often have excellent teaching and guaranteed accommodation.

Cambridge has the hardest course. Someone with slow processing might struggle with the intensity.
Oxford and Imperial have more or less the same difficulty and entry standards (I know students at both, currently). Something to be aware of is Imperial take 60% from overseas (China) so not that many places for domestic students.

Warwick, Durham and UCL have the next highest entry criteria. UCL also take a lot of international students- around 60% so only 100 or so places for domestic students. FOI requests from previous years generally indicate a good probability of an offer if the predicted grades meet/exceed the course requirements (but in the case of warwick might be conditional on exams supplementary to A level, e.g. if the MAT/TMUA score was marginal they may have added a STEP condition to meet).
Bath, Kings, Bristol, Manchester and maybe Nottingham or are also worth looking at.

St Andrews, Edinburgh Glasgow have good depts but raise a dilemma over whether to go for 1st or 2nd year entry. someone with good grades and further maths on entry might find there's a fair bit of repetition in 1st year.

The national student survey does show some variability in student satisfaction. Last time I looked, Edinburgh and Kings showed some signs the students weren't satisfied with organsiation and feedback.

DD didn't get into Oxford for maths and is currently at Bath. Even there, the workload is pretty full on and everyone she makes friends with in her course seems to have dropped out or failed - don't think this is DD related! She achieved very good GCSEs and A levels but is still having to work hard. Fortunately, she also has time for a healthy social life. Given that she's quite interested in maths (as opposed to it being something she is completely fascinated by) I think Bath is probably a better fit than Oxford. It also has a year in industry which she is thoroughly enjoying and I imagine will be s massive advantage when it comes to applying for jobs.

Lots to think about here. Many thanks all. Will discuss with DD.

Part of the issue, I think, is that school/society/wider family all seem to promote the idea that Oxbridge is the be all and end all.

@poetryandwine What would you recommend to an international Maths applicant hesitating between Bath and McGill?

A most interesting questions, @Ceramiq. It depends entirely on the personal qualities of the applicant.

McGill has a (much) stronger research reputation and is likely a more difficult programme. The pedagogy is North American, meaning that there are likely to be weekly or biweekly assessed assignments in most Maths modules as well as midterm exams. I don’t know about McGill specifically, but in NA students typically take about four courses per term with at least one external to their primary field of study.

I supervised the academic side of Study Abroad for my School for a while. Even though we are in the tier just below COWI our students who are selected for McGill, which is one of the most competitive destinations, find that it is a big step up. However, they mostly adjust, love it, and do very well. (My subject is Maths intensive and our students take Maths classes at McGill)

Of course McGill is in Montreal, a truly international city. One need not be bilingual to make Montreal home, but most who live there are.

Roughly speaking, my impression is that North American universities offer more academic support than British universities and students are expected to use it as needed. OTOH there is typically less identification with a School. In the first two years there may be many General Education requirements. You won’t be seeing the same faces in most of your modules, the Subject Building is less likely to have a good food hub IME, so just going about life gives fewer opportunities to fall into friendships. You may have to join sports, societies, do hobbies, etc to make friends. Luckily North Americans are very friendly, and Montreal is a wonderful city.

The lesser identification with a School may or may not have ramifications for students with SEN. It is worth finding out how their special circumstances (which I would always encourage them to use) are administered. Is it convenient for the student?

On the whole Bath has very happy STEM undergraduates, and this includes the mathematicians. It is known for excellent maths teaching. The research may not be as intensive as McGill’s, but it is vibrant - DH thinks highly of some people there and more importantly, there is more than enough to give SoM UGs the connection to current research that does benefit the brightest.

Bath also has an outstanding reputation for extracurricular activities, particularly sports. The campus just has a great vibe! The students look happy. The reputation for working with SEN students is very good.

The city is small but very beautiful; Bristol is down the road and London is a reasonable train ride.

DH and I don’t know much about the quality of UG teaching at McGill. The candidate could probably find a relevant thread on reddit or similar. However the UK really is a leader in teaching methods so as excellent as McGill is, I would be surprised if the quality of the lectures and teaching materials is higher. OTOH the more intensive North American pedagogy may help the material stick better,

Which learning method suits the applicant best? Which living environment? For a very strong applicant with a good work ethic McGill has the edge; otherwise probably Bath. What a lovely dilemma

Edit: It would be more accurate to say thst I don’t remember how many modules McGill students typically take per term