Maths workload at Oxford/Cambridge/Warwick/Imperial

[mmaatthhss]

DD is in year 12 and keen on applying for a Maths degree. Her A levels are Maths, Further Maths, Physics and Computer Science. She will probably drop CS at the end of the year as she's not really enjoying the essay side of it.

She's predicted 3 A* in Maths, FM and Physics and has mostly 9s at GCSE. But she is dyslexic, and is noticeably slow in getting through her work. She has extra time in exams and definitely uses it.

I don't know anyone studying Maths at the above universities but I do have family friends who have studied Natural Sciences at Cambridge and Engineering at Cambridge, and I gather that the workload for these is very intense. I worry that that won't suit DD especially with her slow processing. One colleague of mine has a DC at Cambridge studying Natural Sciences and he does literally nothing but work.

I know everyone is different and I don't want to crush my DD's dreams (she is ambitious and would love to go to one of these universities) and I realise that the probability is that she wouldn't get in given how competitive it is. But does anyone have any insight into what the actual workload is like? Thanks in advance.

@poetryandwine Thank you for that very thoughtful and complete reply. You ask many useful questions that merit reflection!

DD is in her 3rd year at Cambridge, the course is intense. She said it's 12 hours + lectures a week, 2-2.5 hours of supervisions and about 50 hours of independent study. It is a lot - she goes out a bit, and plays a team sport (but decided not to row anymore). Pls DM me if there are any questions your DD would like me to ask her. Wd recommend the St John's maths summer school mentioned above

Cambridge maths is completely unlike A level maths. Very few girls unfortunately and they tend to do poorly compared to male peers, and white students also underperform compared to non white. I had a female friend who got full marks at A Level maths and went on to do maths at Cambridge and hated it - she got a third, really struggled, mental health plummeted. Such a shame - I know only one story but I'd think very carefully about choosing Cambridge for maths. That being said, Cambridge and Oxford are both good for giving extra time for exams etc. not sure how it works in the week though with regular assignments. There's a nice YouTube account Lucy Wang who speaks about her experiences studying maths.

@alexisccd thank you, that’s really kind. However, DD has just announced this evening that she won’t be applying to Cambridge so that’s one decision made, at least.

Schools do this because their oxbridge stats are one of their "selling points", and one of the ways for (private) schools to try to justify their fees. The UK is almost unique in terms of the number of world-class universities clustered within a couple of hundred miles of each other - if any of a half-dozen other UK unis were dropped into a random European / first world country, it would probably rank as the best institution in that country.
Imperial and LSE graduates tend to out-earn those from oxbridge by a signifcant margin though that partly reflects the percentage going into financial services. Another factor to consider is quality of life. The workload at oxbridge is intense. For many, it doesn't allow a balanced or happy university experience. I was discussing this with someone who has 4 children - 2 went to oxbridge, 2 went elsewhere. The two who went elsewhere had a far better time.
Oxbridge may seem like the be all and end all when in the thick of the application process but its not the right choice for everyone and schools should really be promoting a more balanced view.

A further thought for @ceramiq:

I do think it is true that in the UK we provide superior course materials. Lacking much of a tradition of required textbooks we have long prepared our own course materials to a high standard, certainly more than I regard as the American undergraduate norm. I also don’t know to what extent North Americans have kept to recorded lectures since the pandemic.

However the moderate use of auxiliary media within the Maths VLE has become reasonably widespread, and textbooks are more likely to be required in NA. IMO this is usually a good thing, as a good book covers more material in more depth than lecture notes, and one that was years or decades in the writing and typesetting will naturally be of higher quality than a set of lecture notes over which a few hundred hours, at most, were spent - by each lecturer! It is a terrible replication of effort across UK.

Texts are mostly available used for very reasonable prices across NA.

The downside of recording lectures in the UK is that, generally, lecture attendance has plummeted. The best lecturers in many universities now draw roughly 25-30% attendance. The recordings were meant for backup and they absolutely do not work suitably as the primary learning resource. Students inevitably get behind ( which we can see from aggregate statistics in the VLE).

North American students have better lecture attendance, ask more questions, use office hours more freely, etc. The learning environment tends to be much more vibrant and lively. Against this, if there are exceptions to my general description of the UK HE lecture scene, Bath School of Maths may well be amongst them.

The applicant might want to ask about this on The Student Room.

My DS is in his first year at Warwick doing maths and reported that the first term was extremely tough in terms of workload and pace. I know on the Warwick parents page others have said similar things. Like many on his course, he missed his Cambridge offer due to Step, and all Warwick maths students have A star at both maths and FM, so there is no gentle introduction. However he says that he is finding this term slightly easier, so it may be that they throw them in at the deep end in the first term and then things get a bit easier. One thing he did note was that doing Step was hugely beneficial as it helped him prepare for university style maths. And he says there is a lot of support available. The course is definitely not for the faint-hearted and it is quite fast-paced so will not suit everyone - I think you really need to be very passionate about maths. Good luck to her whatever she decides.

@poetryandwine Thank you for your further thoughts. You make a good point (among others) about text books and their sometimes superior status as learning materials in many subjects, in particular those where the same fundamental skills are being imparted in many universities.

My ds is a recent Oxford Maths grad. First year workload was pretty tough and like a PP he found that preparing for the MAT and Olympiad problems really helped. He had around 12 hrs lectures per week, 2 or 3 tutorials or small classes a week and a couple of worksheets a week to prepare for tutorials. He found 2nd, 3rd and 4th year easier - perhaps because he had got into a rhythm of how to work. He averaged about 9-10 hrs Maths a day during term time, sometimes more if he had a tricky worksheet. But he loved the course, the department, the other Maths students and tutors with a passion and felt very supported.

Not a maths expert by any means but get her to look carefully at the universities she's interested in to see what their A level requirements are - many places won't count further maths as a tnird a level and require three a levels excluding FM.
I also have a friend at Warwick doing Maths who still writes a lot of essays so if this doesn't suit her look carefully.
Good luck to your DD.

I really don't think that this is correct about t
FM A levels not counting as one of three, at least for a maths course!!

I know it is true for some degree programmes at LSE. It is stated on the relevant websites

I looked on a few different subject pages at LSE and they all accepted Maths, FM and one other subject.

DD’s (state) school is as bad as any other for foregrounding their “Oxbridge successes” on open evenings etc but I feel very grateful for the various pointers to other paths from this thread. It seems that a maths degree is in a bit of a category on its own so I’m a bit at sea.

It’s only a few degree programmes, OP, and it was last year that I checked. As long as you are up to date with the regs everything is fine

Definitely worth checking this sort of thing @poetryandwine ! I’ve only just got over my old-fashioned certainty that you “shouldn’t” do only Maths, FM and one other so this sort of possibility is stressful.

My ds is at Warwick studying maths. He got 2 As and 2A*s in his A' levels - maths, further maths, physics and chemistry. He is also dyslexic, dyspraxic and autistic. He is finding the course challenging with a heavy workload but he is enjoying the challenge. He is incredibly determined and single minded which helps. He works incredibly hard but is also enjoying all the opportunities the multiple societies have to offer.

That’s really good to hear @lorisparkle

This. Also important to bear in mind that Maths, FM and one other subject is quite a narrow general post-16 education that might trip some students up later down the line.