Insurance higher grades than firm?

[Grassgarden]

We're nearly at the deadline and DS is really struggling with this.

DS has his heart set on a course with entry requirements BBB.

He is predicted AAB and has applied to some AAB courses but is struggling at the moment.

For his final choice he could put a uni with ABB requirement, but that takes much lower.

If he ended up putting his choices as university 1 firm (BBB) and university 2 insurance (ABB), would university 2 still consider him if he slips grades?

I know it's unpredictable what they do year on year, so my question is about the process really.

It would depend on whether uni 2 had any places, he would have to call them on results day and ask. If he gets into his firm choice then UCAS automatically declines the place at the insurance.

Thanks. So if he didn't get into his firm and his insurance were being flexible on grades, would they automatically consider him?

Is the course at uni 2 one which typically has places in clearing?

No

Hi, OP -

I am a former admissions tutor (STEM subject, highly ranked Russell Group).

If I understand, the question is this: suppose DS misses his BBB offer? What is the chance the place with an ABB requirement will take him?

Well, it is absolutely no guarantee but the recent past is the best guide to the future. UCAS and the Complete University Guide will give you the grade profiles of recent entering cohorts.

However your scenario supposes that DS gets BBC or lower. That is at least two grades off ABB. Personally I would only do this if prepared to take a gap year as a back up plan. I know another academic I respect (possibly either @titchy or @clary) has a DC with good experience admission without making the standard offer, so maybe we can reach one of them for a different perspective.

A tough situation - best wishes to DS

As soon as your Firm rejects you, your Insurance has the discretion to consider you. They will have created internal guidance for acceptance and rejection amongst the Insurance candidates who didn’t make the offer.

We are in this position - my daughter's top choice is one grade lower than the other 2 she likes.

She also put an application in to a lower grade one as she thought she had to have one.

In reality she wouldn't go there. She would go through clearing or take a year out. I read somewhere that your insurance would also come into play if the first choice cancelled the course so she is tempted to put one of the two higher grade ones as insurance.

My DS was in a similar position last year @Grassgarden. He got a much lower than expected offer from his preferred choice which he wanted to firm and offers from everywhere else that he had applied to which we're either higher or the same as his first choice.
Lots of people on here told me it was pointless to have an insurance choice that was the same or higher than firm but what else was he supposed to do? He didn't want to firm one of the higher offers as he didn't actually want to go to them even if he did get those grades so the alternative was to have no insurance. We figured it was better to at least be on the radar of 2 Universities rather than only 1 so he chose another offer which was the same as his firm as insurance.
The insurance place actually emailed him a few days before the results came out and made him a reduced offer that they'd honour if he didn't get into his firm so they obviously had reviewed the applications of those who had put them as insurance. Obviously that cant be guaranteed and it will depend on how many spaces a particular course has etc, but equally it can happen. If he has a lower offer that would be acceptable to him then it would be more sensible to pick that as insurance, but if like my DS he doesn't, then put the higher one - it might not help but what is there to lose?

Thanks everyone, this is really helpful.

The ABB university accepted people with BCD last year. I don't think the BBB university is likely to budge.

Thanks for tagging poetry!

It's difficult to say without knowing the subject or uni, but the current financial climate has meant that the higher grade, RG+ institutions, that would normally offer at AAB+, now are accepting students with what was traditionally the grade profile of more middling institutions - the BBB that is your ds's preferred uni. That in turn has meant that those BBB type institutions are struggling - so I'd suggest that even if he did drop a grade, or even two, his preferred place would probably still take him. We much prefer to take our firmed applicants with a grade drop than scrabble about in clearing.

I'm therefore slightly hesitant to even suggest he bothers with AAB places if he definitely wants the BBB place. Would a BCC place be more sensible than any of the higher grade ones? How fixed on the BBB place is he? If he did really well would he think he was selling himself short?

To confirm if a firm choice rejects an applicant at confirmation, the insurance always gets the choice to take them - they have to make a decision either way. Theres no default declining.

Cross posted! Wow four grades is a heck of a drop - Nottingham by any chance? I remember them making ridiculous offers in clearing last year. The BBB place may not have been in clearing last year but still could have accepted lower grades btw from its existing offer holders.

Hey @poetryandwine thanks :)

@Grassgarden that is a massive drop and just goes to show - that it may be worth insuring the ABB, even though I would normally say there was no point.

My experience: My ds2 had AAB as his firm and the only other place he really liked was also AAB (he did have lower offers); so he insured that on the basis that the second uni might be happy to take him with (say) ABB if Lboro did not. It was Leeds so not likely tbh, but it didn't matter anyway as he got the grades.

Two years earlier my DD did a lot worse than PG and missed her firm and insurance; got a place through clearing at Leicester (which after her time there I rate highly btw) – their book offer was AAB or maybe ABB for her course but she got her place with BCC. The following year the course was in clearing at IIRC CCC.

So I guess it very much depends on the uni. Leicester, to take DD's case, is a uni that falls under the radar and I suspect has struggled to fill its seats in recent years – for example in the Covid years, where Leeds was so overfull that it was offering some students £10k to defer, and Lboro had no courses in clearing at all, Leicester was offering DD vv cheap uni halls accomm as I suspect they had loads spare. Those years were an anomaly tho for sure.

Can you share which uni it is that went from ABB to BCD?

You are all so helpful, thank you so much.

The BBB is the robotic engineering foundation at Sheffield. He is also applying for the BEng at AAB. He has his heart set on going there and the admissions tutor said they don't automatically consider AAB people who miss their offer for the foundation so safest to apply for both

The ABB place is Sussex.

He is predicted AAB and is capable of doing better, but he has SEN that make it unpredictable and I think we need to prepare for him doing a lot worse. Just waiting for his mock results to see which way to go

Couldn't he firm the BEng at Sheffield and insure the foundation course? Is that possible? Or have I misunderstood?

This is what I'd do if he's set on Sheffield and that particular course!

Yes, that's what I thought he'd do, but I think AAB might be unrealistic now.

Sorry I know it sounds contradictory. He's clever, but unpredictable

I would firm and insure sheffield in that case if you used sheffield as 2 slots
leave sussex out of it, call them up in clearing if need be

well but then he would have the BBB foundation offer so all good.

Or do you think he might not achieve that? But you cannot really bank on Sussex accepting (say) BCC from an ABB offer, even if they have before. And would he want to go there?

If he really likes Sheffield surely that's the way?

I do think it's possible he won't achieve that, yes. In the summer mocks he got ABC, and could very easily get that sort of result again.

I wouldn't bother putting Sussex down if he isn't keen on going there. If you fill both slots with Sheffield and he doesn't make the firm of the Beng, then he has the fallback of the foundation at the same uni, doing the same course. If he then doesn't hit those foundation grades you can go through clearing.

I'm really trying to avoid clearing because he is autistic and would find that very stressful. Plus he wants/needs to take a gap year.

It's really tricky!

Have you checked whether they would offer Foundation if don’t make the grades for BEng, so don’t need to use 2 options?

@Grassgarden Can I just say that Sheffield, for Engineering of any kind, is far better than Sussex. Engineering at Sheffield is in the DNA of the uni and it’s a desirable place to be for engineering. Hence I can see why they don’t need to reduce grades and AAB is lower than some of their engineering courses anyway.
Others have given a better insight than I can regarding the firm and insurance but lots of maths type courses are not keen on a year out. The other option is apply with A level results in hand next year.

Agree with @TizerorFizz on the quality of Engineering at Sheffield.

Their FY places may fill up, which would be a reason not to apply for BEng in the hopes of being offered FY if you miss out. There is no guarantee, but the BEng and the FY are likely to move together so in DS’ position I would Firm the FY.

I would ideally find a lower tariff Insurance or else an ABB insurance with a great desl of flex in recent admissions data. What about a different FY?