Would the fact uni of York is in financial difficulties put you off your dc going there?

[JennyTals]

? Would that influence you at all ?

No not a bit as long as it didn't interfere with her course

There are numerous examples of 2+ Unis in a town/city.
They cater for different clientele, just like Polys did.
However, Law is a good example. York St John offer it but what are the graduates doing afterwards, as we know it is so competitive. Plenty of graduates being a paralegal before getting a TC.
Maybe the lower tariff courses need to be more vocational.
Maybe there needs to be a national level degree structure, as a first from an Elite Uni is not the same as a first from Bolton Uni, say, a former Institute of HE.
Mergers could only really be at the same ‘level’. York University, for example, wouldn’t want to dilute their offering.

@stubiff Completely agree with this. It think the mistake is an old one - having made those polytechnics into "universities" and adding in the academic courses they weren't known for and for which they've not provided much impact since.

Merging an ex-poly like York St. John which is very low ranking on the general UK universities list for many, many courses with the University of York is an absolute joke and will never happen. Not in a million years.

Technically it wasn’t a Poly. In 1990 it was a college of Leeds Uni, then in 2006 could award degrees itself and became a Uni.
But agree.

Yes but I'm fairly put off in general tbh . Not much value for money

I should have known that because my grandad did his teacher training there.

A lot of the ‘lower ranking’ universities grew out of eg teacher training colleges or technical colleges. On the one hand, the equality of qualification status between ‘academic’ and ‘applied’ subjects seems like a reasonable plan - why should horology at BCU (a highly skilled profession very specific to its location) be granted a lower status than classical civilisation at UEA or whatever, if the hours and rigours of study are equivalent if different in nature? (Or an equivalence within Birmingham - Music at the UofB vs a BMus from Birmingham Conservatoire, awarded by BCU).

The problem arises when an institution of one type offers a course from a different type - English at BCU vs English at UofB are not as comparable in rigour.

Allowing for small specialist university colleges under a single overall banner might be a way forward, with each offering courses in its area of strength.

@Flirusnian I would also appreciate your thoughts on options other than uni and apprenticeships.

@stubiff My argument is that a uni could offer a range of courses. York could have some lower tariff vocational ones. There are good reasons to split law into the upper and lower levels. Like HND and degree. The lesser degrees in law should be the old HND type courses - vocational. Then extra study for the top level degree. No one would have thought that odd 40 years ago. Or offer professional qualifications at unis post HND. Why not?

My local uni was a college of HE. It offered a few niche degrees when I did a professional course there. Now it offers a range of degrees including “engineering”. It’s such a low entry it’s not remotely competing with any top 50 uni! It’s really HND level. These courses could be done via apprenticeships (below degree level) but they are not comparable with a MEng or even BEng from somewhere like Sheffield. It gives false hope and we need these courses to be reviewed and become a vocational training course but taught by good lecturers.

Also don’t forget there’s a lot of access courses now and foundation years. Why don’t we offer the HND style course at unis instead of these? Similar level. Polys did offer them and we need a broader range of vocational courses to lead to degrees. I don’t agree that every vocational course should be degree level though. Many don’t need to be but could be post A level then move on to a professional qualification. We have lost what used to be very good but you cannot make a low tariff degree the same as an academic degree which is a lot more demanding.

Unis could merge and offer a range of courses within a subject.

Why would York even want to absorb these lesser vocational courses in the first place? There is literally zero incentive for them. You're just off in a poorly informed flight of fancy. Waste of time.

Even Cambridge is something like £53million deficit. There are rumours they may pull their vet med course with students mid way through training having to find another uni to take them on. Nowhere is immune to financial issues.

@NormalUntilNot Becausd unis could be centres of excellence for their area. This helps with DC costs and keeps Unis full of students. We do know they need them. We maybe need to move away from Unis being one dimensional? They could offer a range of courses but be judged on degree performance like now.

At least I’m cable of thinking outside the box. How will Unis manage in constant deficit then? Just close completely? Shrink? There may well be other unis that could sensibly merge - it is what businesses do when necessary. Who is going to hand money to unis to keep them afloat if they don’t have enough students?

My bil works at York uni (non academic). The situation is dire generally but no more so at York than other unis, in his opinion

Super Tizerorfizz. The universities can become polys and so the wheel goes round again. It's all pie in the sky. Funding for foundation degrees has been slashed, so a number of places are pulling out. There is no political will to have a broadly educated and skilled populace.

And as for comparability, yes there is an external examiner system which guarantees a first from uob is same value as one from another institution. Indeed it is really higher value, given the often value added elements of teaching those who come from educational disadvantage. Do you think the lecturers are any less brilliant at polys....really. I expect many of you do, but that is not how it works.

He's right. The university sector is in trouble but the position at York is no worse than anywhere else. This is the second time I've seen rumours circulating that York is on the verge of bankruptcy but they're really not.

All degrees are the same? Clearly they are not.

If there are insufficient foundation courses, DC should seek alternative qualifications. The unis appear to be dinosaurs and who said they would all be polys? Actually the polys were great and took a variety of students on a variety of courses so students could work and study. End up with a degree if they could. We cannot afford the current system so maybe let the unis contract or go bust? I’m not sure I care but the current system and insecurity is poor for some students who deserve better.

Tizer, agree, this suggests not all equal.
https://www.hepi.ac.uk/2018/07/02/degree-standards-universities/

Plenty of unis do this with the heating - went back to my DS’s halls to get something and it was freezing even with coat and shoes on

If you love the uni, I’d choose it anyway. It’s a very big/prestigious uni to go bust and I can’t imagine the govt would allow it. Even if it did, the students would be reallocated to other unis - who would no doubt be thrilled with a bit of extra fee income.

Have always found Foundation courses a bit odd - we don’t think you’re good enough for the course so we’ll accept you at 5/6 grades below that and try to get you up to speed.
Reading some more it looks like only 74% go on to the degree proper (good value?) and there is a high % of mature students on that route.

Totally. Students would be better off doing an access course at their local FE college to try and get better UCAS points. Not incur as much debt and apply the following year to uni.

But then they’d have to stay at home and for many young people (such as me back in the day) that isn’t a desirable or feasible option.

Here is a list of cuts to staff, services and issues being made collated together.

https://qmucu.org/qmul-transformation/uk-he-shrinking/

I worked at the University of Nottingham for 25 years and also at the University of Birmingham for 6 years. DH worked for Cambridge and is still employed by another who I won’t name as he is still on the payroll there.

So far we know 5 people who have taken severance in 3 Universities and 1 that applied but was tuned down. I also have 2 ex colleagues who would leave but can’t afford to.

I think what is being under estimated here is the absolutely huge brain drain that is currently happening. Specialist and in depth knowledge. People are jaded though and only see it getting worse. Two of those are leading experts in their fields, the most cited academics in their respective departments.

Thanks for that list @CutThroughLane It makes for sobering reading. I am particularly shocked that Coventry are seeking to save £100,000,000. How the hell did they get to that position? Surely the VC shouldn't have let it all get to this stage.

Students would be better off doing an access course at their local FE college to try and get better UCAS points.

Why? Costs are the same (Access fees paid from advanced learner loan - no education is free!), arguably the teaching on a FY is delivered by those with far better knowledge of the subsequent degree content than that of a college (not to say that Access tutors aren't any good, but they're teaching one curriculum that aims to equip a wide range of learners to a wide range of degrees.)