Law with STEM A levels

[AllProperTeaIsTheft]

Y12 DS is doing maths, further maths, physics and computer science A Levels but has slight regrets at choosing only STEM subjects and isn't sure he wants to pursue any of them at uni. He was an all-rounder at GCSE (lots of 9s including English and Spanish) and is very articulate and a reader.

He's showing a real interest in doing Law. I'd assumed you needed at least one essay-type subject to do it, but from uni websites it seems not. Did anyone (or their dc) do Law after similar A levels? Was it a disadvantage at application or during the course?

Thanks.

There are all sorts of areas where lawyers with a stem background can find interesting work. Land and property, tax, and all sorts of commercial law are possibilities. I agree with the comments on attributes for barristers. I would add confidence!

The main decision is law degree or Stem degree and conversion. I would actually look at an engineering degree. If he’s interested of course.

Yes I think he would be good at all that tbh. He's certainly good at arguing black is white! He plays devil's advocate a lot in discussions at home about current affairs, moral arguments etc. He's always been an all-rounder and would have been good at essay subjects at A Level if he'd chosen to do some. He's a good linguist too (at GCSE he outperformed his sister who's now reading Spanish and Linguistics at uni). Got a 9 in English Lit. Dh and I are both teachers. I'm a linguist, dh a historian, and I think he's benefited from some of both of those sides.

Engineering would seem like a good choice but he doesn't seem interested tbh (in spite of encouragement from FIL, who's a retired engineer). I think it will end up being a choice between law or physics as a degree.

@AllProperTeaIsTheft Thats a bit of a shame because applied knowledge is often very useful. Engineering is more applied than physics. However he needs to look at law degrees and decide if they are for him. Barristers use advocacy skills. Solicitors less so. Plus city solicitor or regional? National firm or smaller regional? University attended matters for barristers. If he does physics there is additional cost of conversion course - no loan from government.

Hmm... good points! So glad I started the thread.

I am a solicitor with 4 solicitor children (the twins qualified this year). I also do quite a bit of intellectual property law. The only points I would add to the above useful advice from others is that most potential solicitors fund their own post graduate years of study as very few find a law firm to pay/ sponsor that. Therefore money for that is an issue to consider at this stage.

There is one entitlement to a masters student loan of about £14k which covers I believe the course fees for the solicitor SQE1/.2 course as long as done with a masters (eg BPP's SQE1/2 masters). If you do a different first degree you have two years of post grad to fund (even though for solicitors nowadays in theory you don't need the law conversion year but few firms will hire you without it - it is a complicated newish system in place). So it can be better to do law first. This not what most lawyer will tell you however. I did an LLB which I loved. However 50% of solicitors don't do a law degree first and plenty of firms like people with a different degree. My only point is that unless you can cover 2 years post grad with loans/family then it is slightly financially risky not to do law as your first degree.

Most lawyers are solicitors, but he should certainly consider the bar too. The processes of applying start through the whole degree so eg there are first year schemes (year 1 at university) with some firms. Then lots of deadlines during your degree even if it is not a law degree and firms recruit many years in advance so he probably will want to do a spreadsheet and time table during his degree and also perhaps try to get on very competitive vacation schemes (paid 1 or 2 week law firm programmes in university holidays - about £500 a week from which many trainees are recruited) and for the bar try to get some mini pupillages in university holidays.

For barristers, they would have to fund the conversion course unless getting a scholarship from one of the inns of court but I think these are usually for financial hardship cases. Then there are big scholarship funds available for the training year from the inns of court. Some based on financial position and some because the applicant is bloody good! Some offer residential scholarships too but most parents have to subside dc during these two years.

It’s absolutely vital to get a decent cv though. It’s also vital to plot how you will become a barrister because there are a huge number of deadlines whilst at uni and very shortly afterwards. Of course some barristers are scientists, but, a number have a science career first, then convert. So if he wants to be a barrister he should look at the degrees of barristers at leading science chambers. This also might be a good read @AllProperTeaIsTheft Chambers student has the full article if you hunt for it.

www.stemfuturelawyers.co.uk/

Physics chemistry biology a levels here, then arts degree, Intellectual property and IT solicitor for 30 years, first 10 years in magic circle firm. They liked my varied background but tbh these days would need a science undergrad. I do everything except pharmaceutical patents work which really does need a chem/biochem masters or PhD I’d say.

For the bar, IP sets will be looking for science, CS or engineering or medical degrees, and many of them will have PhDs. I was involved in a trade mark case recently (nothing scientific about it at all, a fight about drinks packaging) and all 4 counsel, leading and junior on each side, had doctorates in hard sciences. Look at the cvs of junior counsel/pupils, they are UNBELIEVEABLY impressive because the IP bar is small, very lucrative and so very very competitive.

I am learning from the posts above from @Xenia , @TizerorFizz , @Delphigirl and that looks like a very useful link from @Cakeandusername as well. Thank you all.

Regarding the point @TizerorFizz made about engineering: the patent lawyer I know best, who practises in America, actually has an MSc in Mech Eng which he finds most useful. I think Engineering is a bit murky as a discipline to many high school pupils. They simply may not have a clear idea of what it entails.

However it sounds as if OP’s DS has a real love of physics combined with a strong physical intuition (given that FM isn’t his thing - yet at least). He may tend naturally towards what I would call the more applied side of physics; theoretical physics is where you find the most maths. And Applied Physics is very close to Engineering, where good physical intuition is also invaluable.

DS may well find that Law is his best pathway now. If not, his love of Physics may mean that Physics is the only route for him. I admire that kind of singlemindedness and I would never discourage anyone from doing Physics! But if his feelings are any less intense, simply investigate a couple of Engineering programmes where he can use his physical intuition seems a reasonable idea (if only to settle on Physics better informed)

@poetryandwine Someone who might be good at civil and structural engineering could be very useful as a lawyer. It would be a slog though. Many expert lawyers work in their discipline first to gain experience and then convert. There’s a lot of push now to get stem grads into law but it’s a long route and everything needs to be weighed up. Mainly what degree would dc enjoy?

Agreed, @TizerorFizz .

If the DS likes the physical intuition of physics, the question is whether he, and others with the same tastes and talents, would be drawn to Engineering if they knew more about it?

@poetryandwine DH was very lucky to go to a grammar that really understood engineering and architecture. Physics and maths were taken but they had an engineering option snd visited a local uni for inspiring science sessions. They did hands on engineering and built working engineering projects for competitions - and won a prestigious one. Lots of DHs mates became engineers and architects. DH did an architecture course at school. This depth of knowledge has dropped off and people think it’s all about product design or getting your hands dirty.

The engineering institutions are not great at promoting r engineering in schools and leave it up to employers. DH did lots of careers evenings! However it’s a discipline that suits those able to solve problems. As many lawyers do! DH does expert witness work but you must be experienced to have the gravitas! The lawyers are guided by DH.

Sounds a wonderful programme, @TizerorFizz