Law with STEM A levels

[AllProperTeaIsTheft]

Y12 DS is doing maths, further maths, physics and computer science A Levels but has slight regrets at choosing only STEM subjects and isn't sure he wants to pursue any of them at uni. He was an all-rounder at GCSE (lots of 9s including English and Spanish) and is very articulate and a reader.

He's showing a real interest in doing Law. I'd assumed you needed at least one essay-type subject to do it, but from uni websites it seems not. Did anyone (or their dc) do Law after similar A levels? Was it a disadvantage at application or during the course?

Thanks.

Hi, OP -

I am a former Russell Group STEM admissions tutor. I cannot answer your question directly.

However I taught university in America for about 15 years. There, Law is a postgraduate degree. Undergraduate degrees in the disciplines you have mentioned are amongst the most valued, because of the training in logic and analysis they provide.

However all American undergraduates do General Education requirements involving essay writing at A level or higher. Your DS is missing that, but his GCSEs suggest he has the potential to write well. I would not be worried, but I think he will need to pay special attention to written and oral presentation skills after admission, and to indicate on his application that he is doing something now to keep them fresh.

Eg can he join a debating society, great books club, drama club or something similar? Grades and, I think, a certain amount of sport or other exercise (for relaxation) come first, but something using verbal skills wouldn’t hurt. Only if there is truly time

Best wishes to him

Thanks for your reply, @poetryandwine . I'm a secondary school teacher and feel like I should be more knowledgeable about this stuff! Dh, dd and I all did subjects which followed on obviously from our A Levels though, and we all did Arts subjects, so I'm a bit out of my comfort zone with ds. He's already joined history club, debating club and a book club, so hopefully that will help.

I think it’s fine. My City firm liked trainees with “proper” subjects they were more snooty about creative less rigorous subjects like sociology etc (not saying I agree with this) and would be happy with high grade science a levels.

Interesting - thanks @TheaBrandt .

I wonder if he'd fancy being a patent lawyer? A STEM background would be v valuable there though he might need an undergrad degree in STEM before training.

A friend of mine is a partner in a city law firm. He has science and maths A levels, then a first degree in engineering.

I did History, Maths and Physics at A Level, and when I was accepted at Cambridge to study Law my Director of Studies told me it was the Maths and Physics that most impressed her. She said she wasn't bothered about the History at all!

Well, OP, every one of these replies, including yours to me, looks very promising!

The comments about Patent Law are interesting. I think Intellectual Property Law is going to be a booming field, particularly as AI colonises our lives.

Per the experiences related by @Sandwichgen and @agoodfriendofthethree DS might want to investigate the educational paths people take into these specialisms, if they interest him. I imagine there are advantages and disadvantages to getting a first degree in STEM. It is a long slog if your heart isn’t in it, and if you don’t do well you won’t be competitive for the top Law conversion courses.

Thank you so much, everyone! He was dithering about possibly doing a physics degree, but was ready to ditch that idea as he hadn't realised you could do a law conversion course with a science degree. So he's got a bit of thinking to do now, but at least he has options. Physics is by far his favourite of his A Levels. It's computing he regrets taking. Maths is interesting but hard, as he's gone from a nor great comp to a grammar for 6th form and they do maths in one year and then further maths in Y13. Hard work!

DS has my sympathies: Computing AL is not really taught in a proper manner, intellectually speaking. It is a lot of work, so it is a somewhat unsatisfying slog for the able pupils.

Yes, if DS loves Physics he needs to figure out whether he prefers to study Law now, or do Physics and convert. Can the school put him in touch with anyone doing Patent Law ir IP Law whom he could ask? People are usually glad to help when it is easy and fun, as this would be.

I would just add that DS sounds very able but if he is finding Maths a bit difficult he may want to join the online forum The Student Room to get information about the Maths content of the COWI Physics degrees. These programmes might or might not be too mathematically intense for him. (He needs a good degree for a good conversion course, but it need not be from COWI. Physics will be sufficiently impressive.)

OTOH as @agoodfriendofthethree found, I think many Law admissions tutors would be mightily impressed by strong PGs in this set of A Levels and DS’ extra/supra-curriculars, provided DS shows good verbal reasoning at interview. I think he is well positioned to succeed in a UG law degree, provided that he can write well.

All in all, he is in a good place.

Dh works in the VC's office in our nearest uni, so hopefully he can arrange for him to talk to someone.

Thanks - you have been so helpful! Ds was used to being absolutely top of the heap at his previous school, so he's had to hit the ground running. I think lots of the boys had done further maths GCSE too (which I didn't even know was a thing!).

Whilst he may find CS to be a slog, he can at least make the most of the overlap in content between CS and Maths/FM and Physics and Maths/FM. For some, History with STEM is hard because of mental gear changes and sheer scale of content. So discourage your DS from assuming 'what might have been' would have been better.

I had a DC at a comp doing Maths/FM who experienced an influx of students in Y12 with Further Maths GCSE. This was intimidating at first but initial advantage for those students fell away quite quickly, with some struggling particularly with the FM. Again, encourage your DC to focus on their incremental improvement rather than immediate comparisons with others.

There can be a lot of rather reductionist thinking surrounding law, with 'you ought to do history' being a classic. Some of the best solicitors I know have STEM A levels and degrees and, no, they are not patent attorneys or IP specialists but people who think logically and who, where the matter requires it, can readily grasp the complex technicalities underlying a process, business etc. when advising on a deal or a dispute.

Interestingly, I saw that law firm Osborne Clark is advertising summer internships on Gradcracker aimed specifically at STEM students (see the link below).

It would be sensible to research and understand the LNAT as this is a hurdle for some of the competitive law degrees (if that is a route he seeks to take).

www.gradcracker.com/hub/1071/osborne-clarke/work-placement-internship/66073/vacation-scheme-london

Thanks, @PerpetualOptimist - that's really helpful!

I did maths, further maths, physics, chemistry and English lit at a level. I then did law at Cambridge. A law degree is all about logic, so a more scientific approach served me well! It also impressed for job applications. It's amazing how many lawyers panic at anything involving maths! Good luck :)

Thank you, @snackprovidersupreme ! It makes sense that a logical brain would be helpful.

@PerpetualOptimist raises an important point. I did not mean to push DS towards Patent Law or IP Law, only to suggest that these are two areas that might interest him.

He can choose to do Law now or to do a conversion course without concerning himself about a specialism yet. However if the atent Law/IP Law strikes a chord then the person in DH’s office is a great one for an opinion on the two pathways

American (PG) law schools have valued STEM students for generations primarily because of their skills in logic and analysis and the evidence on this thread suggests that the same is true in the UK.

Absolutely, @poetryandwine, your suggestions are spot on and Y12 is the year to start some serious career research.

My wider point, which I did not properly tease out, is that patent law and IP law are relatively niche and can be highly competitive and we should not rule out other areas of law for STEM leaning DC.

Prospects.ac.uk is a good starting point for career research.

For what it's worth my DS has started his Maths degree at one of the COWI universities and he's always found maths easy and is still finding it manageable

He also took A level maths in yr 12 and FM Yr 13 because that's how they did it at his school

He has friends taking Physics and CS and says their maths is different and they're finding the maths quite difficult

That's interesting. Ds is finding physics far easier (and more interesting) than his other subjects, even though he says his teachers aren't as good as his maths and computing ones. He should definitely look into what kind/level of maths is involved in a physics degree.

I'm just really glad he's got a possible goal now. He hadn't really realised law would be a possibility until a couple of weeks ago. They had a talk at school from a barrister, which is what sparked his interest. Dh also has a relative in Paris who's a partner in a big international law firm, so maybe he could get in touch with him!

Sorry ,
I replied on the wrong post

STEM subjects lend themselves well to law. Factual and logical.

I do think most work at the Bar needs a strong facility for language - pleadings, skeletons, oral advocacy etc - but that doesn’t mean that an essay-based subject is necessary at ‘A’ level. Can your son write well anyway? Is he well-read?

If meeting a high standard in English is no problem, STEM subjects would be as good as any.

A bit of an aside, but has your son looked into the pathways to qualification as a solicitor or barrister? It’s worth thinking ahead if he’s tempted by law - although of course he doesn’t have to practise: the degree is a good one in its own right.

I did Maths, F. Maths, Physics and Economics at A level, so similar to your ds except for Economics which is an essay subject. I qualified as a lawyer and have worked in City law firms for the last 2 decades.

I agree with other posters that logical thinking and analysis will serve your ds well. However, most law students will come from a humanities background and have the ability to research and absorb a large amount of information via text and analyse and write up the analysis and conclusion in varying levels of detail.

Does your ds feel comfortable with that?

One area which some STEM students may find doing law is that there is no one correct answer. If it was black and white, you don't need lawyers. He has to be comfortable with the grey areas. He should be able to argue that black is white and the reverse by selectively presenting the facts and the law to back it up.

That is, if he wants to be a barrister.

For solicitors, there are areas of law which don't rely so much on legal argument and black letter law. Commercial law in its various incarnations and is more understanding and documenting complex commercial structures, drafting and negotiation. Again, logical thinking and being able to hold complex fact patterns and cause and effect logic trees in their heads - the sort that would befuddle most people - would be very helpful.