Law career/vacation scheme advice

[notsoloudoliver]

I'm hoping someone can help. DD is a second year law student and is in the process of applying for vacation schemes for next summer but also has exams and assessed work to be completed at the same time as the deadlines which are coming up fast.

She's spiralling as the vacation scheme applications seem to require a high level of research and knowledge about specific firms that she feels she can't do right now without compromising her degree work.

I've done some googling so I don't give her duff advice but have actually been quite freaked out myself reading some of the articles about completing the applications and how most are dismissed immediately for being too generic and not firm specific and how 90% are rejected etc.

She does want to be a solicitor but she is also enjoying her life right now and trying to get the best degree she can but has called in a complete panic that she's left it all too late and should have been leading societies, reading up on law firms etc.

We don't have any law contacts in the family and my background is science based - plus I'm a 90s graduate who got a standard ABB at A level, went to a very good uni, fell into an unrelated basic level job and progressed quickly. I feel totally unprepared to give her any advice about this uber competitive path.

Can anyone kindly give me any advice as to what I should tell her ?

My point about next year is she now knows what the applications look like and so can work on her deeper research into firms and prepare her answers in the summer and have them ready to go - not that she just delays and goes through the whole process this time next year.

But knowing that she can just reapply without being prejudiced by a weak application this year is really helpful.

@Toastforlunchthen thank you. Did your DD not apply at all until after graduation or did not get an offer until she was working as a paralegal ?

I'm a partner, have had a very solid career including a decent training contract and did only a 1 day vacation placement (having applied to lots). Some people get several but many get none, on paper there's not that much to distinguish between them it's just how it falls sometimes. It can and is also influenced by who you know at times.

What I would say is whether or not she should prioritise applications depends on what type of firm she is aiming for when it comes to a training contract. If she's targeting the top firms then yes she needs to throw what she can at getting a vacation placement at that type of firm. If she's aiming further down the list of top 100 firms and regional firms then it's less essential, and later on getting an entry level job in those firms can be more beneficial to securing a training contract with them.

Also target what little time she can dedicate to applications to a few strong local firms may be more fruitful, many candidates will have the same academics so push the local connection and why that firm and it gets noticed more. Still high number of applicants but odds are overall better and will still be a vacation scheme for her cv.

I would tell her not to worry about summer vacation schemes. The vast majority of trainees now have worked for a number of years as paralegals and have to ‘earn’ their training contract via that route. I have worked for a large national firm and it was rare that a trainee came straight in from uni without doing time as a paralegal first.

I would just advise as much legal work experience as she can get outside the bigger firm vac schemes if she doesn’t have her heart set on a city firm.

Just to add I also am one that went in as a paralegal, it made me a better trainee and far more convincing to get through the training contract assessment process. I also got mine via an opportunity that was only made to internal candidates outside of the firms wider public application process. My firm now does similar too and almost all of our trainees have worked for us before.

Unless she's aiming for the top straight out of uni she doesn't need to get too stressed about it right now

I don't think it will negatively impact her if she has a weaker application this year followed by another a year later - it's harsh but many firms wouldn't even know she had applied twice, the applicant numbers are just too large for them to spend the time looking at that. For others if there is any she is very interested in then making the point that she has applied previously and remains keen, has built on x y z since her previous application etc may well help her get more noticed as long as it comes across genuine.

Just to note that this is not true for the top international firms in the City.

It’s very rare that my firm would take a trainee that has paralegalled for any significant time first (ie more than just the summers in law school, or before a March start date). Bluntly, the top candidates will have secured training contracts straight out of uni without needing to do this, so unless there is a particular reason for it, it usually implies a weaker applicant. This can be compensated for by other things, especially if the paralegal experience they’ve got is excellent, but that will be the starting perception.

It's not true that firms won't know if she's applied before. All that data is captured and often firms ask if the candidate has previously applied. (I work at a magic circle firm and am involved in the process)

I agree completely on not relying on being an internal applicant for any length of time, those that get to 18 months-2years will not get favoured.

I went in that way but had a good reason for it, and was offered a training contract within a couple of months then just carried on in that role until my start date. Others I knew did the same, it was quick, 6-12 months max. So you still need to be ambitious as a candidate. The ones that didn't never qualified as it raises questions why.

Not to add to your stress though OP!

As I posted before, a lot of it comes down to what type of firms she is targeting. She needs to get her head around that first and what is going to be realistic for her. The top ones have a culture of young trainees straight from uni, and for those absolutely aim hard for the vacation placements. As you go down the types of firms that shifts and becomes more varied, very good regional city firms etc are typically more mixed in their approach

Absolutely.

Some firms change their questions the next cycle. But usually they follow the Why Law? Why this firm? Why you? format.

It isn't always as simple as preparing for next year's applications ahead of time but can be.

Actually your route is more the exception

Have been a lawyer in large commercial firms for 20 years but ok 🤷‍♀️

My firm tracks the data and asks about previous applications too, but for most applicants the reality of that (for us anyway) is not much more than a glance when sifting and more of a positive than a negative on the applicant. It means we can swiftly take out the ones we know are a definite no from previous rounds where that won't have changed, but for most, particularly if 2nd years the first time round, it wouldn't be a negative then applying again for us a year later.

@NeverHadHaveHas Same, there is a big difference between types of firms though and I agree from my 20 years in commercial firms you don't have to go far down from the top before it starts to get more varied and common for TC to go to internal applicants and definitely not the exception. Some firms have always avoided them, some are very open to them.

If mainly looking at the top city firms and magic circle then some may not be aware that's all - hence I imagine why OP started this post in the first place

She’s specifically said she’s not looking city/MC, hence my advice.
If she’s looking at niche/smaller firms the TC recruitment process is likely to be more flexible.

They will know, but are unlikely to hold it against her, depending on the stage she reaches in the process.

Lots of the early stages are filtered by online tests/HR. If she doesn’t get through at that point then it doesn’t matter - go again next year. If she gets to partner interview stage and they have fundamental problems with her then that is different, but she’s unlikely to get that far with a weak application in the first place.

SQE route is only option for a yr2 undergraduate to qualify now.
Some forms are still choosing to structure the qualifying work experience as an old style training contract but there is no requirement. Lots of work inc voluntary is now eligible to be qwe.
Op says she’s not looking at magic circle.

They will know, but are unlikely to hold it against her, depending on the stage she reaches in the process

I agreed with a comment which was exclusively about knowledge but I also agree with what you say about the impact of a prior application depending on the stage that application was knocked out at.

@notsoloudoliver DD’s route was graduate, apply for vac schemes in the autumn, assessment centres, summer vac scheme, LPC the following year with the TC the year after that
She worked as a paralegal including part time when she was doing the LPC, although she did get the costs of that paid and a small grant from her Training firm.
It’s not for the faint hearted and there are a lot of hoops to jump through but she’s nearing the end of her TC and is really enjoying the role.

@notsoloudoliver this is also of interest to me as I have DS1 and DS2 currently on their 4th round/ year of Vac Scheme /TC applications, and in the middle of SQE1 and SQE2 training at the same time, now. Neither did law as a first degree, so have also had to do a year of the PGDL training and exams, after graduating too.

I echo those who've said how hard it is to get a TC nowadays and I think that this has got worse even in the last few years. I think the success rate is now 1% to 3%. My DCs have often been told by firms that there were around 9000 applicants, maybe 200 who got to interview stage for a Vac Scheme, maybe about 25 selected for the Vac Scheme and then of those, maybe only 4 or less offered a TC.

Sometimes, no one from the Vac Scheme cohort got offered a TC at all. So I do wonder whether, as @Aurea, @NeverHadHaveHas and @Toastforlunchthen mention, you really need to work as a paralegal to improve your chances.

@notsoloudoliver and @Fayrazzled it might help to hear a bit about one of my DCs experience applying for Vac Schemes/TCs.

My DCs started applying whilst in their 2nd years at uni, (one at Oxford, one at Cambridge) which was very hard work alongside degrees too, lots and lots of relevant extracurricular activities eg positions of leadership and responsibility/ team work/ managing large budgets, writing for student and non-student publications, winning law essay prize, actively involved in uni Law Soc etc etc.

Across the last 3 years, as an example, DS2 has now had 7 Vac Schemes offers, 5 of which he was able to do, as two of them clashed with other ones, so he had to give those up. Really difficult, as he'd put in hours of work to get so far with every applications and then wasn't able to accept 2 Vac Schemes. (This happened also to DS1, who had to let go of one VC offer as it clashed with another). He also progressed to final rounds for some other Vac Schemes and some TCs.

I think he's made around 15+ applications per year/round - possibly more and each time, spends days researching the firm and tailoring his application for each firm, might also have done Insight Days/Open Days with them. So that's roughly 45+ applications across the past 3 years whilst doing his degree, his finals, his PGDL. He's very good at juggling a lot of work and responsibilities and can manage on 4 hours sleep or less, if necessary.
It's incredibly tough as he's now on the fourth year of applications and there doesn't seem to be an obvious reason why he's not actually getting a TC offer at the end.

Last time round, he was told he'd done particularly well at the Vac Schemes for at least 2 of the firms, (his supervisor even commented that he was better than many of their trainees and other VC candidates), 'happily' did a four hour commute each day, getting up at 5am, yet often first to arrive, last to leave, asked for and completed extra work successfully beyond the VC remit. Everything looked positive.

However, at The Assessment Centre Day - ie the actual assessment for the TC, where he competed with lots of non VC applicants too, he just didn't get a TC offer at any of the firms.

As usual, he had to wait around 6 months for a short, 'feedback' call with HR, often with someone who'd never met him and was just reading from a feedback form. Each time, feedback is very generic. Both he and DS1 have often been told, "You were very good but at this stage, we need you to be perfect in everything".

Neither really knows what that means, if they've been told they scored highly in all assessment tasks, were particularly good at the partner interview bit, great at the teamwork task, great at presentation, showing commercial awareness etc etc, then what's not working?

It was also very interesting that he was told quite clearly, "Your performance on the Vac Scheme doesn't matter/ doesn't count. Everything goes on the Assessment Centre Day and it's a level playing feed for all applicants at that point, which includes those who applied directly for a TC and didn't do the VC and those who are currently paralegals at the firm."

That's not what I thought happened. I'd assumed that it the firm actually likes you a lot whilst you're working alongside lawyers, why would the VC not really count towards your chances of getting a TC offer?

I should add (though sorry I'm taking up so much space on your thread @notsoloudoliver) my DCs are applying to commercial city law firms, not all MC but around that level and then next two levels down, if that's how you describe them (not a lawyer myself).

Final thoughts and questions for @harrietm87 and @Imisschocolate17 and others working as city lawyers:

If you don't get a TC offer whilst at uni or just out of uni, have you missed the boat and then are likely to have years and years of making applications?

Is it a 'numbers' game and if each year, you get a fair few VCs and through to last rounds of applications for these as well, is that a sign you should just keep going - or a sign that there's something about you they just don't like or want?

How possible nowadays is it to get into a good city commercial law firm, eventually, if you do the QWE paralegal route across a few years but don't get a TC?

@ThatllBeTheDay

That's funny.

I wonder whether they are at the same firm in London?

I don't feel I can name the firm but its name has two words and the first letter begins with L.

If it is the same firm, my son is extremely proud and happy to work there and can see himself staying indefinitely (if they'll have him).

@mutterphore

I'm very sorry but not at all surprised to hear of your DC's trials, despite their credentials. I, myself, was dismayed that my son didn't receive offers during his first two TC application cycles although he (in my biased eyes) had done everything to increase his odds (top grades, Oxbridge offer from a comp, president of three uni law societies including founding one, debating, etc).

On graduating, he joined a law temping agency to get some relevant work experience and then began a campaign of contacting people on LinkedIn on spec in his target area of work. A very kind lawyer took pity on him and met for coffee and gave him some application pointers to his firm which led to paralegal work at his dream firm with which he now has a TC. In this instance, thinking outside the box and showing initiative paid off.

Good luck to your DCs!

Aurea I'd probably better neither confirm not deny :) Many congrats to your son. Lots of different routes to the same end destination!