Law career/vacation scheme advice

[notsoloudoliver]

I'm hoping someone can help. DD is a second year law student and is in the process of applying for vacation schemes for next summer but also has exams and assessed work to be completed at the same time as the deadlines which are coming up fast.

She's spiralling as the vacation scheme applications seem to require a high level of research and knowledge about specific firms that she feels she can't do right now without compromising her degree work.

I've done some googling so I don't give her duff advice but have actually been quite freaked out myself reading some of the articles about completing the applications and how most are dismissed immediately for being too generic and not firm specific and how 90% are rejected etc.

She does want to be a solicitor but she is also enjoying her life right now and trying to get the best degree she can but has called in a complete panic that she's left it all too late and should have been leading societies, reading up on law firms etc.

We don't have any law contacts in the family and my background is science based - plus I'm a 90s graduate who got a standard ABB at A level, went to a very good uni, fell into an unrelated basic level job and progressed quickly. I feel totally unprepared to give her any advice about this uber competitive path.

Can anyone kindly give me any advice as to what I should tell her ?

My son is a second year law student in the same position. I have no advice to offer- only solidarity- the expectations on them are brutal.
Despite being at a top 10 law school, my son says they are repeatedly told that most of them won't get a training contract- great!

You just have to look at the vest numbers doing law at top 10 unis to know that getting a training contract might be a challenge. This is partly because so many very good applicants won’t be studying law at all. It’s a very broad intake.

One thing dc do need to understand about law, is that multitasking is important. Dc do need to be able to juggle lots of things successfully. The law firms do know students are under pressure but they want people who thrive on pressure. I’d draw up a spreadsheet of deadlines and go for it. Thousands do manage it. If you aren’t in it, you cannot win it.

My son has recently been awarded a TC but only after working for two years as a paralegal after graduating.

It is brutal and extremely competitive. He widened the goal posts as he was very particular about which firm to apply to as he is passionate about human rights and wouldn't apply to a typical commercial law firm.

Out of his cohort of six law students (Oxbridge college), three received TCs on graduating and the other three (including my son) took another year or two.

It seems some law firms prefer to offer TCs to those with some legal work experience rather than fresh graduates, so working as a paralegal in the short term is helpful and may be a way to get a foot in the door.

Some of the other applicants at assessments days had applied multiple times before success.

https://www.allaboutlaw.co.uk/vacation-schemes
Firstly lots of deadlines not until early new year so time to apply over Christmas.
Presumably has some idea if she wants to aim for city magic/silver circle or regional firm.
Better to do fewer but quality applications.
As a solicitor 25 years pqe I’d also say there’s a whole world of law outside city law. Look at all options.
The market has really changed with sqe and no need for a formal training contract. Working as a paralegal and then going on to qualify is very common.
I’ve 3 paralegals in my team who will all qualify but in different ways.
I’d also say as someone who recruits that real paid customer service work stands out on a graduate cv, I was shocked how many with degrees and even masters had no paid work on cv.
Make sure she’s utilising uni law society and careers service. I follow uni my dc is at on social media and every week they seem to have talks and careers events.

The type of firm that offers a vac scheme will expect hard work, ability to excel on several fronts and to run multiple matters simultaneously. Applying at the same time as 2nd year exams is what has always happened. If you're not good enough to complete the application form; you're not good enough.

Brutally: tell her to just get on with it.

I suppose the question is whether lack of a vacation scheme will hurt in the long run?

Of course it’s brutal and she isn’t afraid of hard work and will be working almost full time all Christmas while in the evenings writing her two assessed essays to be handed in at the beginning of January plus having a social life and going overseas for a week. She also worked all the way through A levels. Multi-tasking not a problem.

But she’s having a wobble as she knows she needs to write very specific considered answers in a very competitive market and she has no idea if she’s on the right track. I can’t help with that.

She doesn’t actually want to work in a magic circle/city firm but is attracted to more niche areas and as the acceptance rate for the schemes is so low, I think I’d like to tell her to focus on her degree, get as much experience of any kind of work as she can (she has contacted some local law firms and has a weeks work experience at a small firm lined up for reading week), and then next summer starts a more targeted process refining the direction she wants to take - she is after all only 19 and chose law more for academic reasons (loved debating/research/essay planning/presentations etc) rather than chasing a magic circle job.

Im worried that’s bad advice though.

If she doesn’t want to work magic/silver circle then that takes away a lot of the vacation schemes. It sounds like she’s got plenty for her cv, well done on securing work experience.
Mumsnet law advice is heavily focused on city/magic circle.

My own view (having been at a Magic Circle firm myself in my youth, and with two DC who have trained and were taken on as associates at Magic Circle firms after uni) is that the whole thing about the applications is massively over hyped. Fill in the forms genuinely, don't try to write the answer you think they want and see where it goes. I appreciate that that isn't the area of law that your own DC is interested in but if my advice applies to those firms, then it's highly likely to apply to the rest. Firms don't want lemmings who just feed back their own marketing bumph to them - they want clever and creative thinkers.

My second DC to go to a Magic Circle firm did no work experience whatsoever before applying for Vac Schemes immediately after graduating and by December had offers from both the Magic Circle firms that he applied to. To be fair he did graduate with a First from Oxford which 100% seemed to open doors wherever he pushed. Perhaps they liked the 'fresh to this' approach. So I think your own advice could work.

That's interesting Aurea. My oldest DC (also Oxford) trained at a Magic Circle firm, then worked as an associate then quite quickly moved to a leading Human Rights firm in London. Her boss followed that same trajectory. She seems to think that her training gave her a very solid foundation to spring off from and of course the firm covered all costs - major bonus. Many different routes to the same destination. Lots of undergrads/ grads take a while to find which area suits them best. There's no real hurry.

Slightly off topic, but looking for a niche area at 19 might not be the best idea. My DD didn’t do loads of paid work (surprisingly difficult to get!) but did lots of volunteering to get the same skills. It would have been lovely to have been paid! She also did 2 weeks with a local ish solicitor in the broad field of work she wanted. She did not do a law degree though and definitely had more time to build a cv.She’s a barrister. Never applied for city law.

I would also say that being strategic with time can help. Did she need to work full time over Christmas or would spending time doing applications be a better use of time for her career? She might only be 19 (my DD is an August birthday) but thinking about how you use time is important.

Yes she does need to work over Christmas as she travelled during the summer and is going away for a week too. She is short on money and there is only so much subbing I can and am willing to do.

This is part of my thought on being strategic with her time. Now she has seen the level of work and thought she needs to put into the applications, I am thinking she maybe better amassing work experience and spending the rest of the academic year/summer properly researching firms and writing targeted applications next year rather than scatter gunning generic applications now.

She’s also an August born so will be 20
when she graduates and spent her first year of uni having a blast. She is only now opening her eyes to what is needed future-wise.

She’s bright, hard working and meticulous but so are lots of young students!!

My DD didn’t travel. She worked at volunteering for cv in y2 summer vacation. It’s all about priorities. She always knew becoming a barrister wasn’t going to be easy. She worked for that outcome and then did lots of mini pupilages and held leadership positions at uni.

I think your DD seems to want a good time first. I can understand that but it leaves y3 as a very high pressure year. I can only say that my DD as a non law grad had to get her ducks in a row to stand a chance. I do know others can afford to be more casual and pass every entrance test with flying colours. My DD didn’t think she would so planned her strategy. It didn’t involve travelling. It involved getting a cv that might get noticed! Although depends on how recruitment is done. On line tests filter some solicitor applicants out now I think.

Now she has seen the level of work and thought she needs to put into the applications, I am thinking she maybe better amassing work experience and spending the rest of the academic year/summer properly researching firms and writing targeted applications next year rather than scatter gunning generic applications now.

OP I would definitely give my DC that same advice. Especially in your DD's case, being so young in the cohort.

@Fayrazzled sorry I realise I didn't reply. Thanks for the solidarity!

Possibly a slightly different approach but I think she should pick a small number of firms (maybe 3 or 4) and submit as strong applications as she can for them.

It should be perfectly possible to do this without compromising her degree or social life. The applications/interviews themselves are all good practice, and whether she wants to go to a city firm in the end or not she will be much better informed (and therefore able to justify her later decisions/applications) having gone through the process and ideally having spent time at one of these firms.

The norm is and always has been for law students to do this during their second year. It’s a wasted opportunity not to even attempt it imo.

I am a city lawyer btw, though I didn’t study law at uni so I was doing all my applications and vac schemes while preparing for my finals. It will only be more stressful for her to be doing all of this next year.

Edited to add - no one will know or care that she is an August birthday. She can always defer a TC if she wants time out later.

Ha ha no, I don't think anyone will care that she's an August birthday!!! I do recruit for another area so not entirely naive. That was more a personal comment on her levels of experience right now.

All of her work this year counts towards her final degree grade so not much more stressful in that way.

One question, if she makes a weak application this year, will it count against her if she applies for the same firms next year ?

Thank you for all the viewpoints so far - they are all helpful. For example, I think I had caused some stress by encouraging her to make lots of applications, not realising how different it is to my own field (very results rather than experience driven at this age/stage)

The effort required is because the applications for Vac Schemes are effectively job applications a year early - if you have impressed on a Vac Scheme then you are far more likely to be considered for a proper job (and bigger firms are still doing the TC rather than SQE route).

I would strongly encourage her to apply- vac schemes make a big difference down the line.

I notice that most of the firms have courses on forage that take 4 to 7 hours to complete. I wonder if it is worth applying for a vac scheme, if they haven’t completed the forage course. If it’s an unofficial requirement, it adds many hours of work to any application, and it would make sense for students to aim to finish as many as possible in yr1 to be in the best possible position.
(My own DD did not do this and is scrambling!)

It won’t count against her - she can just reapply.

And next year will definitely be more stressful than this year as she will either need to beat or maintain her performance from this year, when it really counts, likely with more challenging material. On any level she is not going to have more time on her hands next year compared to this year.

And if she has a go this year she can learn from that experience next year. It’s foolish to pass up that chance.

That's interesting, do you think those online programmes could be done at any time or are they only useful if completed in yr 1?

I've just spoken to DD and told her to ignore my poor advice to play the numbers game for a start and filter the applications to those she thinks are strongest, then work on those. I've also reassured her that this isn't her only bite at the cherry - she does know this.

She set up an appointment with the law careers advisor for some specific advice.

If anyone has any feedback as to whether a weak application this year could damage a future application with the same firm, I'd be interested as it might make a difference as to which applications she focuses on.

DD went through this.
She graduated, worked as a paralegal then applied for vac schemes.
She did four applications in all, very tailored to the firms she felt were right for her, did two schemes and got offered a TC with one.
As far as I know her contemporaries that got TCs all got them via the vac scheme route. It’s very tough for them.

Apologies, crossed messages. That's good to know thanks.