Deliotte Apprenticeship (ACA) v degree

[Blubell46]

Hello,

My dd is in Year 13 and is applying to uni to study economics and has also applied for apprenticeship course.

She has got an apprenticeship offer from one of the Big4 accountancy to study ACA ( professional qualification).

Just wondering if anyone has a child studying an Apprenticeship and feels they missed out on the Uni life? Or feel that future employers see them differently to graduates?

Just trying to balance both sides of the arguments. Any advice will be appreciated.

Thank you

Agree I would like my children to experience all stages of life; enjoy the university experience. They are going to be working all their life. I would not change my university experience for anything in the world; best years of my life.

It is horses for courses and I think it is more about encouraging DC to think through the decisions and do their due diligence (pun intended). I was careful not to lead the witness either way.

My apprenticeship DC have been able to lead a full life outside demanding work roles; and having to build that themselves and think about ensuring activities and friendship groups were diverse and not work-centric has further accelerated their personal development, I'd say.

They did move away from home which made it tougher but also better; equally more and more students are considering living at home for some/all of their course; as a result, the uni experience is morphing for this and a variety of other reasons.

So, I think we need to be careful not to slip accidently into an underlying trope of uni at 18 = exploring, risk-taking, socially rounding, intellectually stretching and apprenticeship at 18 = constraining, risk averse, socially stunting, intellectually undemanding. Both routes can lead to either positive or negative outcomes; it really does depend on the individual.

I’m interested to know what are the opportunities of you get your ACA and CTA from Deloittes as all the research I have done does not seem to suggest an amazing career. It’s adequate but extremely few make partner. The pay for years is quite suppressed.

How well paid are the exit routes once qualified and to do what?

Curious as DD is big 4 and has good qualifications. She loves it but I wonder if going into law or investment banking would have been better. I guess it’s horses for courses with her and clearly she fines numbers exciting.

If you take an apprenticeship you are routed down that way and lose the opportunity to do things like Law or banking.

An accountancy qualification can take you all sorts of places. My CIMA qualification, which followed an economics degree, first took me abroad to an international HQ, then into various international roles where finance was not always the core skill, but understanding balance sheets and cash flows was, and still is, really useful.

In terms of degree first, I felt my economics background has also been valuable. I have been surprised at times at how economically illiterate some well educated and high flying people are. That said a lot depends on the DD. University provides a chance to broaden your knowledge base beyond accountancy (language, economics, history will give the ability to write argued and evidenced reports, IT leading to a forensic specialisation, even STEM and a career in the science sector.) It also gives a chance to fly the nest and avoid the 9-5 for a few years.

How mature is she? At 24 when I first qualified I worked alongside someone at the same level who was 21. She was way more mature than me, and had never wanted to go to University. At 18 all she seems to have wanted to do was establish a career, get a mortgage and get on with her adult life. And why not. We are all different. A friend's child, who was equally mature and impressive, did not want to leave home. His parents were in the middle of an awful divorce which had involved him moving countries aged 17, with him being the de facto adult looking after his traumatised mother and younger siblings. He had his own longer term plans once his (banking) apprenticeship ended, to seek a transfer abroad and gain life experience that way.

In short, she has great options. What does she, herself, want to do?

Can I just add, ‘the uni experience’ is a modern rite of passage, and previously reserved for the academically able. Even so, many people still don’t today and go straight into employment.

Also, as people have said, it’s not always cracked up what’s it’s supposed to be nowadays. I think Covid has had a huge impact, because there were a few years where the Freshers week, clubs, usual uni activities didn’t happen. Usually the baton to organise these things get passed on from one cohort to another, but there was a break in this.

Also, a lot of unis themselves are running out if money and are making drastic cuts. For example, there’s discussions to move all the courses at Lampeter in mid-Wales to Carmarthen.

Don’t want to dampen anyone’s spirits, but I feel the tide is turning regarding university. Covid, cost of living, university fees, and employment potential means that people are thinking more seriously about their future.

Your last point is completely incorrect. I took that route and now work in banking, it’s common for former accountants. Law, no, but the only route into law is a law degree and you can do even less with that. As I said, look at the boards of any major company and you’ll see several ACA qualified members. It’s a much broader skill set than working in an investment bank.

I’m extremely surprised you think it doesn’t suggest an adequate career (you’re wrong), my peer group have left the Big4 and gone on to be management consultants, IT specialists, data specialists, work in mergers and acquisitions, banking risk, etc etc. as well as the typical in house finance route to CFO. Typical salaries for a newly qualified leaving big4 practice start at 55-65k, 75k+ if London based. Progression is usually fast after this, most people were in senior 100k jobs (if they chose) by 5-10 years post qualified, some quicker. Many will have the opportunity to make 200k+ in non Big4 roles if they wish. Very few make partner, but few want to, I certainly didn’t and prefer my career path now.

Have you actually spoken to your daughter about her plans or ambitions?

@Fireworknight I totally agree with the points you make and am very much on the side of the OP's DD taking the apprenticeship..

But just to put things in a bit more context, where you said:

"Even so, many people still don’t today and go straight into employment."

It's not just "many", it's most.

A parliament research briefing said that in 2023 just 35.8% of 18 year olds went to university. So, 64.2% did not. Almost two thirds of 18 year olds did not go to university.

OK, yes, some may have taken a gap year, but the large majority of young people in the UK do not go on to university.

I was interested in some of the differences as well:

Boys 31%
Girls 41%

That really is a very big difference. Almost 70% of boys did not go onto university compared to 60% of girls.

Disadvantaged (FSM) 19%
Non Disadvantaged 36%

So, for students who have been eligible for free school meals, over 80% do not go on to university.

Then ethnicity

Chinese 68%
Asian 50%
Black 47%
Other 43%
Mixed 36%
White 30%

Then looking at different regions, London comes out top with 50% and it goes down to 30% in the North East, South West and Wales. Scotland is 29%

https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-7857/

Thank you that is all reassuring.

For the time she seems exceptionally happy with her lot and liking it. She seems happy to take one day at a time. It’s me who does the fretting. O think that she is thankful for the training although the pay is not great with living costs.

@Blubell46 HUGE congrats to your daughter! My DD is doing the ACA apprenticeship at a Big4 & in her 4th year, having taken the final Advanced exams a couple of weeks ago. So fingers crossed will be qualified. What would you like to know? If your DD would like to chat to mine just PM me.
DD turned down reading Economics at a good unis to do the ACA apprenticeship. No one on her cohort has low A level grades. Firms say A level grades don’t matter bc they have their own selection criteria. Yet by default they’re all bright young things. I think around 35 apprentices from across the U.K. started in her cohort but there’s just 2 of them in her city/office. They mix with the grads and tbh within months no one knows the difference. They socialise as an office and with the grads. The original ‘across the U.K.’ cohort rarely get together as a large group anymore but she’s made some solid friends within that group. The exams are brutal. They have lectures / training with the grads - they’re all together. There’s no difference at all. They’re given early responsibility and seem to rise to the challenge. The hours can be long esp in busy season and audit can be tedious. It’s a good idea for her to live near the office as it’s quite common to work 7am-11pm through winter months. She has no regrets.

I think the other thing to bear in mind is that accountancy apprenticeships cover a very broad spectrum in terms of qualification pathways, elapse time and steps to chartered status, rhythm and quantity of work, diversity of work type and client types, location of office and clients. Pay v living costs can be different in the regions v London. Tax advisory can be very 'law like'. Transactional work has a very particular focus and energy. So, a bit like at university, there is no single template and it is up to the individual to make the most of the opportunities rather than the role/institution automatically spitting you out in a certain form and onto future guaranteed pathways.

7am - 11pm 😔See this is why I said don’t go into this type of environment before you have to and are mature enough also not to do this. This is crazy!

But not unusual with jobs that lead to high flying, highly paid, careers whether law, banking, medicine, or even policy jobs within the civil service.

I would argue that a place who think it’s ok for such young people to work those hours on regular basis is not a place you want to work. Certainly not a place you want to give up university years for. I say that as someone who has spent 30 years in investment banking. I am aware of what the hours can be like. I actually see the tide turning. The young people I see joining the bank where I work demand more work / life balance.

They demand more balance but this is simply a shift from awful to bad. Still young people line up to work for Investment Banks or American law firms. Accountancy will have peaks around year ends but should, in comparison be easier. Young people often work very very hard at University, aiming for the high first which will help pave the way to a high powered job. There is a reason why the LSE library is open 24 hours and is busy through Christmas and Easer vacations.

Part of the issue with a demanding engaging career, is that it requires commitment. Firms should not exploit people, but equally in many areas better experience is gained if you can show flexibility.

If a highly pressured career is not for you, choose something else.

(Personally I am often shocked at the hours people running small businesses work - lots of stress and far less reward.)

My ds has done accountancy in transactions. He’s worked those hours in the last week or so, but usually works more regular office hours. I think the auditing divisions do these crazy hours more than other sections,, but it’s not all year round.

As @Needmoresleep says, people running small businesses can work these hours with doing the core during the day, and admin during the evening. Plus nowadays, people call tradesmen at all hours, not just 9-5.

I am well aware of university students having to study long hours too. I have a DS1 who graduated with a 1st recently, however, he still joined societies and had an active university life/ experience. I have another DS at uni now who has discovered a new hobby / passion. I think the university years are unique as you meet so many different types of people from different countries who you typically do not meet if you go into one industry. You just cannot replicate it.
I also think the student experience of working hard is mostly very different to the pressures you will face in a corporate environment where there will be power imbalances. I see this every day and I see the number of young people off sick on stress leave for months because they cannot handle it. I am so glad my children don’t rush into corporate life.

The student experience is different to that of working. This is the choice OPs DD needs to make. That said plenty of first jobbers manage to work hard and play hard. DD used to play senior hockey in SW London when she was still quite young. Most of her team mates were building careers in law, banking etc. They gave every impression of coping with the stress and being able to let off steam.

Interestingly my DD hasn’t had one day off sick in the 3.5yrs she’s been working there. As others have said it’s not every week. But they do have busy seasons where some weeks it is 7am-11pm. It’s worth factoring that in when choosing a location and considering commuting times. Young people need to know this and be prepared to work hard for the rewards. On the flip side they have summer working where you can finish at lunch if you’re up to speed. If you’re working somewhere with power imbalances that are causing staff sickness @Obsessedwithlamps you need to do something about it. That is NOT an acceptable work environment.

But yes @Obsessedwithlamps the corporate world at 18 years old isn’t for everyone. It most definitely was for my DD1. Working alongside grown ups has done her the world of good! Shes absolutely flourished. But indeed it’s not for everyone.

@NotDonna , by power imbalances I mean that you have managers who you want and need to impress. I think it’s much more difficult for very young people to put down boundaries. If people are having to work 7am to 11 pm then something is very wrong in your DDs organisation and this is what causes the long term ill sick leaves. Go into any investment bank or similar environment and you will see burnout and long term sickness is rife!

Yet it isn’t rife at her big4. Go figure!

It’s a great opportunity however my worry is if they make redundancies or she doesn’t perform, where does that leave her. Big 4 are notoriously cut throat and will get rid quickly if the team isn’t making enough revenue. Would she have enough qualifications to go elsewhere if this happens eg 1 year in?

@Obsessedwithlamps . I raised the long days with OP so she could consider location & commuting. Those hours are NOT all the time. It’s a few weeks through busy season. But no, you can’t just sack it off because it gets hard. Tbh, any person worrying about a few weeks a year of these hours won’t get through the ACA exams anyway bc they are tough & the hours of study required is brutal.

You go to university? Just like ppl who start one course at uni & don’t get on with either the course or the city and switch to another. In fact it’d be easier to move from an apprentice to a uni as you’ve used no loan etc.

You think there is no burnout or sick leaves in a Big 4? You sound very naive. I hope your DD will be fine once the first excitement and adrenaline has died off. The adults working with her should protect her against those sorts of hours. Sounds like worse place than mine!