Deliotte Apprenticeship (ACA) v degree

[Blubell46]

Hello,

My dd is in Year 13 and is applying to uni to study economics and has also applied for apprenticeship course.

She has got an apprenticeship offer from one of the Big4 accountancy to study ACA ( professional qualification).

Just wondering if anyone has a child studying an Apprenticeship and feels they missed out on the Uni life? Or feel that future employers see them differently to graduates?

Just trying to balance both sides of the arguments. Any advice will be appreciated.

Thank you

Think this depends on the child and what they want longer term and exactly what are they turning down in terms of degree. I did an economics degree and my daughter is also doing one and would choose the same again for both of us and she is absolutely loving both the degree and the social life, as I did. But we both wanted to work in roles were economics degrees were a requirement like macroeconomist roles or overseas economic development roles and roles relating to politics / policy. I would say over 50% of people doing economic degrees are more likely to go into accountancy / finance than specialist roles or academia and if your DD is in that category and certain she is the apprenticeship offers the chance to have a similar career progression without the debt of university.

I don't think the social side is the same in the workplace though probably depends what university and what workplace - I have also worked for an accountants briefly (found it very dull) and in banking (loved it but that was macroeconomics, that had a good social life but very much attached to the bank, not as good as other roles for social life or university). Everyone I know who has done accountancy has had excellent earnings prospects so if high earnings are a key motivator its a good option.

Big 4 is more than just audit. Which part of the business would she be working in? The con above might be true or might not be, depending on which bit of the business she's in.

Dear all,

I just want to say thank you so so much for all your advice. It has been totally appreciated.

My dd was offered the Deliotte brightstart programme. She has applied to Russell group uni - a couple in London and so far has heard from one- uni with an offer for economics.

After reading all responses - we are going to chat to her after receiving the contract and go through all the pros and cons and ultimately it will be her decision since she will have to own this.

At this moment from reading all the messages my DH and I are thinking if she decides to take the apprenticeship she should defer the uni for one year- just in case it is all too much. Although she seems very excited about the opportunity in taking the apprenticeship.

Probably just me worried since I went to Uni and loved it but I have a feeling things have changed!

Thank you all so so much. I love this forum.

I've been in the Big 4 for over 25 years and sponsored the business apprentice programme in a previous role. I have a degree and ACA. If one of my kids was offered a Big 4 apprenticeship I'd tell them to grab it with both hands. ACAs crop up all sorts of expected places. Off the top of my head I know: CEOs, CFOs, management consultants, accountants, university lecturers, trainers, coaches, tax advisers, corporate financiers, investors, researchers, academic authors, a poet...

Accountancy is something that is at high risk of AI automation in the next decades

Complete bollocks. I've been an accountant for 40 years. I remember people saying the same in the 80s when computerised book-keeping/accounting software started to appear. Around that time, there was also what was being touted as a "massive" risk to accountants when the banks started their own book-keeping/accounting services. Nothing bad happened.

Then in the 90s and 00s, it was the accountancy profession at "risk" of automation via internet banking, bank accounts automatically linked to accounting software, businesses being able to "ping" their returns to HMRC without a book-keeper/accountant involved. Nothing bad happened.

The reality is that accountancy is as strong as ever. It's a profession that is constantly evolving. When one door closes another swings open.

Yes, I'll accept that there may be "risks" at the bottom end of the profession, i.e. basic book-keeping and data entry and maybe the old-fashioned "tick and bash" style of auditing, but that's really not what fully qualified/experienced accountants have ever done, and those low skilled jobs have been getting "automated" for decades alongside improvements in IT.

There are so many strands to the accountancy profession, such as tax planning, business development, data analysis, financial services, insolvencies, estate planning, consultancy, etc., that, if anything, the need for broadly trained/experience accountants will increase to work alongside those developing AI systems. And, of course, lots of qualified accountants leave accountancy practice and move into industry/commerce to take jobs as finance directors, and a fair proportion even to managing directors.

I also think there is little risk to the accountacy profession from AI over the intermediate future.

The doomsayers were predicting that my own profession would be overwhelmed by AI by now. Thus far it is proving to be an opportunity in some areas, irrelevant in others

DS is in his final year of a degree apprenticeship. It is incredibly hard work and not for the faint hearted. I was delighted when he got this as its money(32k) no tuition fees and a guaranteed job for him. As an aside DH and I have recently retired early from higher education, he is still classed as a visiting academic. I won’t relay my feelings on this as they are a bit negative but he is a slave to his own brain.

The University experience of having fun is in my really bloody parsimonious opinion not enough to give up such a great opportunity of a really good apprenticeship. There were 1,000 applicants for DS apprenticeship and they took on about 20. At least 2 have dropped out as couldn’t handle the pace.

But it’s work, my goodness the hours that lad has put in are huge. He is currently on a weekend break with his GF and he had a deadline for some written work early next week so he pulled an all nighter two days ago to submit before he went away. He had a paper round from 13 to 16, worked in a kitchen in first year of sixth form and then worked for a freight company at an airport for two years after his A levels during covid. He was also in a football team from age 6 to 15 and then in cadets from 15 till he was 20. He is someone who gets bored easily just like me. I think people are clever enough but it’s the internal drive that’s important. That’s what you both need to consider.

I think you also have to consider location. If they're going to have to move to their own flat etc due to the jobs not being close enough to commute from home, that can be a huge cost and take most of their wage for the first year or two, especially in expensive cities. Of course, they're not going to let student loans to pay for their accommodation and living costs. My son had to move to a different small city for his first graduate job after leaving Uni and despite being a good starting wage (closer to national average and well above minimum wage), and over half of his wage went on rent, utilities, commuting, and buying all the furniture/furnishings for his flat as all he could get was unfurnished). Just something else to be aware of and factor in!

To add Universities are in crisis currently, even my last employer a RG group University one was taking some students with less than stellar results this year. So if she gets good results she will honestly be fine. I remember a time when I was having to do the poison chalice that was admissions and had to turn away people with AAB after their results came in, this was about 15 years ago. I hated doing that. This year on some courses in my old dept they were accepting CCC. That old triple A course will now accept BCC in clearing.

It really is not the same as when you went, I’m assuming the late 1990’s or early 2000’s. I went in the early 1990’s, what a time to be alive it was great.

I think that sounds like a sensible plan - if the universities won't defer offers then she can always reapply next year if its what she prefers but it doesn't work out and lots of students take a gap year.

My DDs university experience is very similar to mine in the 1990s in terms of peers, social life, course etc but obviously there's the £9,250 tuition fee and £5000 accommodation bill a year (and some universities its a lot more) and will vary by institution.

"...and will work at one of the top investment banks when she graduates."

Will? So, the earliest she will graduate is next year. You are saying that she has already been offered a position?

My DS was in this position. He eventually declined the apprenticeship, went to uni, did a summer internment with them in year 2, and then joined as a graduate aged 21.
He found the ACA exams tough, and the long working hours at Deloitte were horrendous. He's glad it's all behind him now. He wouldn't recommend Deloitte as an employer, but that's just his individual experience. I also don't think he could've handled the pressure and extreme work ethic at 18, even though he was mature for his age.

A lot of these jobs will be offered based on 2nd year placements, so if in her 3rd year this is entirely feasible.
My ds will shortly start his economic consulting job, after a 2023 summer internship and 2024 graduation.

Thanks, things have clearly changed from my day. I went through several stages of interviews with JP Morgan (it was still Morgan Guaranty back in those days so you can tell how long ago it was) but that was all later in the year than November.

Ds was also several stages, but timescale was 2nd year, 1st term - he was offered the 2nd year summer internship just before Christmas in the 2nd year.
Then offered the actual job at the end of the internship.

If she goes with the apprenticeship for some subjects she could go straight into a masters if she then wants to broaden her options. Whichever option she goes with doesn't close the door on the other.

Deloitte. Definitely.

I‘m a lawyer so different but now they’ve started offering that for law I think it’s a brilliant thing. I think it requires maturity and work ethic but to do well at university also requires that. She will be getting ahead of the game career wise and degrees these days aren’t offering things an apprenticeship isn’t and is also charging a shedload of money to boot.

I've got 2 ds's of similar ages.

Ds1, academically intelligent, went to uni to do econometrics, was VERY set in investment banking and saw uni as the route into it. Applied for 2nd year internships, didn't get any IB ones, but did get an economic consulting one, really enjoyed it and is starting work with them soon.

Ds2, not as academic as ds1 but still bright, worked hard to get his alevels. Was adamant he wasn't going to uni and wanted to do a degree apprenticeship in Business Restructuring. Applied to a few but didn't get through the process. Post alevels applied to local insolvency practices and has been taken on as an apprenticeship, will initially do AAT levels 3 & 4 and then professional qualifications.

I work in a mid-tier accountancy firm, we take both graduate and alevel apprentices. Graduates go straight onto level 7 (ACA or ACCA), alevel leavers do AAT level 3 & 4 then level 7.
So alevel leavers should get the professional qualification a year younger than the graduates, and with more work experience.
No difference in how they can progress from the point.

Personally, I didn't want to go to work at 18, and didn't want to stay in education at 21. But I wasn't paying for it!
It is a different decision nowadays. Ds1 above has nearly £60k of student loans debt, whereas Ds2 is earning nearly £20k pa and living at home for at least a couple of years.

Go for the apprenticeship 100% she'll be miles ahead in career by the time her friends have left uni.

As someone who did ACCA there is honestly no point going to uni to study accountancy. When you leave you still have to do exams for CIMA/ACCA/ACA and you are saddled with debt. If she can earn, not get into debt and have this professional qualification then she has struck gold!

I agree and support your post. My ACA qualification - I've not done accounting for the longest time. Yes I can draw up accounts and can interrogate a balance sheet. But choose not to. My passion is data, data control and how data moves through organisations. I worked in financial services, moved into education and am now, as I hit retirement, moving into a third industry. So no pigeon holing here. It is an excellent qualification.

I would say there's no need to study accountancy at university. But if there's a subject she has an academic interest in, it's not to be written off as an option.

When I was at big 4 we could really see the difference in maturity between the grads and the school leavers - and the difference in how they coped with independent study.

That said, spending 3 years earning instead of 3 years getting into debt isn't to be sniffed at. I'm still very close friends with my colleagues from there - it was a bit like still being at uni in the sense of the wide ranging conversations people were happy to have etc.

It is impossible to overestimate how hard work it will be though - though that applies whether you join as a grad or straight from school. It was not good for my health and I experienced discrimination as a result of that while I worked there. Maybe things have changed since I was there but I doubt it, it was less than a decade ago. It was an exceptional experience and there's a reason being big 4 qualified is so highly regarded. But it's also not necessarily the way I would choose to start my working life, because I struggled to set appropriate boundaries when I was there and that was after living away from home etc for years already. Sometimes people would have a breakdown and just vanish, never to be seen again.

But some people thrive and love it. Some people take the qualification and thrive elsewhere. Just don't go into it without also recognising the cons.

It's been amazing for my career and I think in spite of the difficulties I would still do it again if I redid things knowing what I know now. But I would have set firmer boundaries.

Thank you all again for your advise. As a parent I am worried about how much work is involved when reading this thread and whether she has the maturity to cope.

If she decides to take this path she will be living at home and we will be able to keep an eye on her.

She is in a grammar school and the pressure is full on and she does cope. I appreciate this is not the same but we do know she thrives when she is surrounded by like minded people .

I think deferring uni for a year is something I am keen on. She is very young and would have only just turned 18 when she starts work. At this moment she wants to do the apprenticeship and doesn't want the debt..

At the end of the day we have said focus on your A levels.

Thank you again for everyone's helpful comments.

Your DD would be part of the Bright Starts apprenticeship scheme, so she would have access to a whole host of wellbeing and personal development resources. Last week they could attend a session on Building Resiliance for Study Success. Next month there is an enrichment week looking at career development and wellbeing. She would be supported by her talent coach & tutors alongside her managers at work.

I think deferring uni is a good idea.i would in banking and there is a young woman who has come from one these type of apprenticeships from another big bank. She is doing incredibly well at an early age and has no student loans to pay off (I am personally not so worried about those).
Personally I would encourage mine to go for the uni experience. I have worked in corporate high achieving environments for 30 years now and I would want my children to have a few years between child and adult to experience something else before starting on the corporate ladder….