"3 prestigious universities about to go bust" - on Radio 5 live this morning..

[devilsadvocate77]

...heard a chap who was contributing as part of Nicky's slot (still on) say that three unis are about to go bust, not to mention the many others who are running at a deficit.

Nicky asked if he would name them but he refused.

Any ideas??

I think for many the masters for internationals with dependents (wives, other family etc) was a way to get into the UK, so I guess that route is now closed.

I think for many the masters for internationals with dependents (wives, other family etc) was a way to get into the UK, so I guess that route is now closed.

Well yes - they came to study. Are you suggesting large swathes of foreigners used the student visa route to come to the UK and stay here illegally?

That didn't happen. The student visa is one of the few visas that does not have a problem with overstayers at all.

I do a lot of hiring. In the padt few years there has been an explosion of people finishing masters with two years to run on their visa who are looking for someone to sponsor them after that. I’ve hireda few, but often their commutation skills are not good enough to cope, thoughtheyappear over qualified on paper.

I thinktheir motivations are complex, but it’s not credible to pretend that bringing one’s family and gaving a foot in the door is not a motivator.

I think the evidence points to the opposite of what you're saying actually: https://migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/resources/briefings/student-migration-to-the-uk/

and https://migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/resources/commentaries/international-students-entering-the-uk-labour-market/

I’ve hireda few, but often their commutation skills are not good enough to cope

English language skills, or rather lack of them, can be a real problem for overseas students. A while back I taught a postgrad course and it could be hugely challenging marking scripts due to often very poor English. Yet we would be under huge pressure to award marks and pass them. The students themselves would often have invested huge sums to come to the UK, sometimes sponsored by whole communities, and were expected to repay that - for example by supporting others to come when they got a job (in the UK). So they were under enormous pressure to pass too.

I do agree that the evidence shows there was a problem with overstayers but no idea why they can’t just be more efficient at getting people to leave after their course. 🤷🏻‍♀️. I used to have a Kenyan lodger on a student visa and shortly after his time was up he got a letter telling him to leave or be deported. So he left.

Not sure it does OP. Your second link - 11% switch to skilled worker (so shortage occupations - we want these people!), 8% on short term two year post-study. So more than 80% return home. That doesn't sound like an abuse of the student visa system.

In terms of economics though, dependents are a cost to the UK. A taught PG course at Sheffield Hallam costs £17k to £19k, less for an undergrad. If they arrive with a spouse and a couple of school age children then the state incurs the cost of education plus health costs for the whole family. It quickly starts to cost the UK more than is gained from the student’s fees.

Really? They come here and spend money here to live. The flat they rent, food shopping, it's all money from their home country being spent here.

Health costs covered by NHS surcharge payable by visa holder. Cost to UK taxpayer - £12k for two kids at state school. Income to UK taxpayer - £15k to uni, £15k+ to landlord, £15k+ to local community - shops, transport etc.

interesting thread, especially to me as my younger daughter is a hard- core scientist. Surely physics has never been as popular as maths, chemistry or biology with girls? 6 of DD2's 12 GCSEs are in science subjects, as are all 3 of her A levels and both her degrees but physics was the.one she never.really enjoyed.

Just a.minor clarification needed to the above- the evidence shows that girls do better academically at single-sex schools. Whether they do better socially is a moot point, anecdotally it seems that lots of girls disliked their single-sex education.

He wanted 50% of people to go in to HE. What’s the point in half the population having a degree, when it costs £9000 each year for tuition fees alone? There aren’t that many graduate positions for a start. It’s not good value for money for many students. Money should have been invested in technical colleges.

Universities have to adapt the overseas students are a bonus now not the norm

@Duc He didn’t achieve it though. Many older people in the workforce have degrees when they cost £0 or circa £3000 pa. Blair was long gone before the fees became £9000 plus. The cost didn’t necessarily matter when grads got the best jobs and lifetime earnings were substantially higher. We currently have just under 50.% of the workforce with degrees and that will increase as workers without degrees retire. When I left school only 15% went to uni but many got professional qualifications via another route whilst working.

After unis expanded and the cap on places was lifted in 2014, some grads (around 20%) have failed to secure grad jobs, and that’s with employers saying loads of jobs are for grads when they don’t need to be. About 37% of 18 year olds go to uni. I do think that’s too many and would prefer to see a strong HE sector below degree level but using uni expertise. It also seems very unfair to use fees from arts and humanities subjects to subsidise sciences and allow those students to have the same level of loans and “grad tax” conditions when we know these grads are more likely not to get higher paying jobs.

It was the Conservatives in 1992 who allowed the polytechnics and other colleges to become unis. Many of them had been technical institutions and although that expertise was not lost, they expanded into lots more areas of learning. It’s also true that most DC who want a technical education can get it. Some unis require very low A level grades for degrees but I agree it’s not cost effective if DC don’t get a job paying above non degree holders afterwards. You also cannot make dc take up technical careers just by providing courses.

I would prefer to see is the HND/C type of student being taught at unis which were colleges of HE or Polys before 1992. This could be business (as I did), engineering, technology and many other areas allied to work. These courses provided a good base from which to move on to a degree.

When places like Dulwich College and Eton are happy to send their students off to technical college I’ll happily support reducing access to universities. Until then it just sounds like the middle-classes wanting the lower orders to get back in their boxes.

There will always be International students. The UK HE system is still respected overseas and people want to study here.

We just won't have them in the same numbers as we've had in previous years.

It’s nothing to do with class. It’s actually about finding the right route for middle achievers. Eton and Dulwich are highly selective and don’t have middle achievers any more than state grammars do. Jobs in technology are quite often well paid and I would also support young people who want to be plumbers and electricians and builders. They might not be going to uni but they make a very decent living and run their own businesses so are entrepreneurial. Great job choice in my view.

It’s about to do with class. If you don’t believe there are young people in the state sector who are as bright and capable as students at Eton and (especially) Dulwich College you are completely deluded.

There absolutely is a social class element to university and career choices. This well documented and supported by data.

It's also well documented that high achieving schools promote higher education as a preferred route for their students and often don't provide sufficient information on alternatives to HE.

There’s little point talking about Eton regarding this topic. They are irrelevant,

@MargotwithaT Do not put words in my mouth. I did not say the state doesn’t have bright pupils. I would say a huge amount of work goes in to engage them with the HE courses they can aspire to. I would argue that most selective school have nearly all DC gojng to uni whether state or private. Eton is just one of hundreds of selective schools.

You really are deluded.

People always do though. Maybe now and again they should throw in a Harrow.

An old boarding school near us was closed for a time then bought by a Chinese company who have a number of schools in different countries. Now that is what we used to call a crammer. It's certainly not for middling pupils.

Otherwise I suspect that the majority of private schools are a mixed bag.

Out of youngest DC's old primary class. Five did apprenticeship, one went into the marines. Two of those had bought houses by the age of 22.

Four of them went to university. None of them are on the housing ladder. Three are still in university having taken a work break of two years before going back to do a masters.

Interestingly the two that are doing a masters say that it's mostly male students on their courses, compared to their undergraduate degree.

@justasking111 I just think people make choices that suit them. My DD has long standing friendships with Harrow alumni. They do have scholarship boys! I doubt anyone would know where they went to school! It’s all a bit sad that a fairly interesting debate on uni finance comes down to a tiny number of boys who go to a private school. Many private schools are not selective and their alumni do all sorts of things.

When those non-selective private schools are sending loads of their pupils to technical college I’ll take you seriously. Until then, I’ll wait.