Medicine 2025 entry - part 2

[HGC2]

Not sure how to link old thread, can anyone help me do this?

Onto UCAT and personal statements now - good luck everyone!

Not sure it's a good idea, bearing in mind there are not enough F1 jobs as it is.

@SoTiredNeedHoliday
The expanded numbers for 2025 entry have already been allocated. They're fairy uniform across all the medical schools that wanted extra, so only a small number aren't taking any extra.

Beyond that, medical schools are still pretty much in the dark. The last government was very keen to move to 4-year medicine degrees and there is work going on to address the feasibility of this. My impression is that the new government is at least as keen to make this change, although there are lots of issues that would make this extremely difficult to implement and I don't know what discussions are going on at university/NHS/government level. There is also a commitment to have a sizeable proportion of new trainee doctors on apprenticeships, with a pilot programme running for 2025 entry.

So it's hard to predict where the extra places will be until we know what proportions will have to be on 4-year programmes and apprenticeships. I'd be fairly confident there will be new medical schools, though. There are a few new ones already (Portsmouth, Surrey, Cumbria) that are delivering other medical schools' graduate-entry programmes, as well as Chester, Three Counties (Worcester) and Brunel now taking home students as well as internationals.

Because the total number of students starting in 2025 will be higher, there will have to be a large number of offers made. Whether this translates to more applicants' being interviewed or a higher proportion of interview candidates' being made offers, we'll have to wait and see. I think quite a lot of medical schools would struggle to do more interviews, though, so I wouldn't predict UCAT thresholds dropping sharply.

Regarding the lack of F1 places, we have been promised by NHS England that postgraduate training capacity is being addressed as part of the expansion plan. I'm afraid I don't know any details of what is being done, as I don't move in those circles.

If it goes to a 4 year degree most other countries won't recognise it. Not enough clinical time. So doctors will be trapped in the UK, that doesn't have enough jobs for them. I hope someone is working on this !

This year 1,000 F1s had no job allocated. 100 of them didn't know until June, starting in July. Some don't yet know where they are doing their F2.

More med school places is madness.

That would be a nightmare I feel lucky to be doing the 5 year course for sure. My plan is to move out of the UK to be honest but you raise such a good point.

@mumsneedwine it is a terrible state that is for sure and I agree making the degree lighter will only diminish its worth and that is pointless too.

On more places, I think that we need to train more of our own doctors rather than poaching them from other nations already trained so, which would hopefully create the jobs needed for our new doctors. Not an easy thing to fix though - so many moving parts and in an NHS that has nothing to spare funding wise.

Your points (and many others about the same proposals) have been made repeatedly. I'm afraid I'm not in a position to hear government resonses directly. I don't think anyone is suggesting cutting clinical time. I think the focus is on using placement time more efficently and compressing the pre-clinical time, although nobody has made clear statements on whether this would mean students' having shorter holidays and therefore less opportunity to earn money and more rent to pay. The only reference in the documents is to meeting GMC requirements to practise in the UK. I haven't seen any formal recognition of the fact that many medical students intend to practise in other countries, which are unlikely to accept 4-year medical degrees (it took a major diplomatic effort to get 5-year degrees recognised elsewhere in the EU when the UK was a member, as most countries expect them to be 6 years). If the government's position is that the NHS shouldn't be paying to train students to become doctors in other countries, fair enough, but they need to be told this clearly and explicitly before they apply.

It's worth looking at the detail of the original proposals and the responses that had already been made at that time: https://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/CBP-9735/CBP-9735.pdf (section 3, pp 32-38).

There are already 4 year medical degrees - a lot of universities offer them. They are for graduates (but you don’t have to be a science graduate). They do this partly by cutting holidays; you might only have six weeks holiday per year. But I guess there is also an element of a first undergraduate tuition that is around learning to study at that level, that shouldn’t need to be taught to graduates.

America also has 4-year MDs, again graduate programmes

It is going to be even worse for the next couple of years as for 2020 and 2021 the government lifted the cap on medical school places due to the exam fiasco meaning many more met their grades. It was lifted to 10,500 from 7,100.

If also doesn’t help that no priority is given to UK graduates for F1 places, over overseas graduates. Which seems absolutely crazy to me.

If we prioritise our own students over IMGs - problem solved tomorrow. As well as meaning we are not poaching doctors from red list countries. Every other country in the world does this.

Let's hope it gets sorted fast.

@KielderWater they have adequate clinical hours that satisfy other countries. If UK courses get cut they won't any more (as has been said they almost did with the 5 year courses). Only some UK Unis are transferable to Singapore and Hong Kong already.

I can’t see Labour doing that though.

I can.

I've been lurking on these threads for a while. My son did the UCAT exam today and got a score of 26 40 with S J T band 4 😭.

Is this completely hopeless now? I've read lists of which universities will instantly disqualify him with band 4 but which universities are worth applying to?

@DrFoxtrot 2,640 isn't a low score (in the fourth decile from the top) but the SJT will rule out come medical schools.

This page is quite informative, although I think some of it is slightly out of date. Useful as a starting point:

https://www.themedicportal.com/blog/where-to-apply-with-a-low-ucat-score/

@NoNotHimTheOtherOne thanks, I'm looking now. I've briefly discussed it with him but he doesn't want to talk about it yet ☹️.

I just edited my post to make the point that 2,640 isn't low.

If he wants to study medicine, get him to find out about problem-focused and avoidance coping. Important topics for a medical student to learn.

@NoNotHimTheOtherOne thank you, really helpful.

@DrFoxtrot all is not lost! There’s definitely some places that he can look at - here’s a few suggestions to take a look at/score. Will depend on his others stats (GCSE, A level predictions, contextual flags) Get him to review each uni website and click on every link, google admissions stats for each and if in doubt, email the admissions dept for clarity - my DD found them generally very helpful.

Aston, Exeter (if all Astar predictions, and check interim UCAT deciles to see if the score is likely to be in the top 3, it would have been borderline last year), Leeds, Plymouth, Southampton (UCAT here is usually a lot higher but it may drop now all the London unis are UCAT so could be worth a punt), Sheffield (I think they use SJT as a station during interview, UCAT cut off could be borderline here too but perhaps worth a look), UCLan, Bangor, Cardiff, QUB
Think SGUL use SJT post interview so might be ok, if confident on interview performance
Also Dundee, Glasgow and St Andrews (if Scottish, for sure worth a look)

@Sybill thank you!

Sorry your son is disappointed, the UCAT is utterly horrible. My Dd had similar ucat score (2670) but sjt B1. If your son does end up retaking next year, DD did say that SJT was the one bit you can really train for as the same questions pretty much come up on repeat and with enough practice you get the hang of it once you’ve read the NHS guidance too. The other bits she could only improve up to a certain level as she has dyslexia and it’s all about processing speed.

We have unfortunately ruled out Southampton and Sheffield as she would have been under ucat thresholds for both last year.

Avoid Notts and Lincoln as they heavily weight sjt.

With DD’s stats we’re looking at Notts (she’d have been right on borderline last year), UEA, Keele, KMMS, Leicester and Lancaster; Sunderland, Plymouth and Bangor would also be possible options just that bit too far away for us. Also Aberdeen and Dundee but decided again too far away and limited RUK places. Some like Lancaster a bit of a stab in the dark as they used BMAT until this year but I gather had quite a low threshold relatively.

Not looked into which of those won’t accept sjt B4 but off the top of my head I think KMMS and Keele automatically reject.

DD is also realistic that this may be a two year cycle for her but earning a year’s worth of salary hopefully in a care setting wouldn’t be awful - she’s also an end of June baby so young in her year. Whilst we have annoyingly just moved to a quintile 5 area (a bugbear of mine, there are more expensive quintile 1 houses where we live because of the massive postcode boundaries - I know it’s about social mobility not capital wealth but it seems a flawed system) we don’t have tonnes cash to help her out!

Hi all,

I've been lurking on this thread a while now.

DD just did her UCAT. Score of 3060 and SJT band 1.

She has the following GCSEs
8 x grade 9
1 x grade 8
1 x grade 7

She will get contextual points on basis of our home postcode and her college pass rate data (but not her secondary school data)

I presume that she will be in good stead for an interview at almost any uni, is this correct?

Her school have mentioned Cambridge but I am less keen on this for a number of reasons. But looking at the above stats, is it worth a shot?

@MauveMoose she can pretty much choose ! Does she like the course at Cambs - v different to most places with a 3 year focus on science and v little patient contact. Lots of nice safe options for interview. Use ones that use UCAT and maximise chances.

@DrFoxtrot it's so hard when you know they'd be a great medic but stupid UCAT trips them up. 2640 is not a bad score, but that SJT is going to make applying more strategic then ever.
Plymouth & Kent don't use SJT. St George's are now using it as part of selection and several others score it as part of interviews. UEA use it at interview stage. But he's nothing to lose by applying this year so choose carefully and 🤞.
Avoid Manchester too as they don't accept SJT 3.
Good luck.

Sorry, Kent does need SJT 3. Too much gin last night 🫣

Thanks for your response. This is one of the many reasons I don't want her to apply there. The course is very different to elsewhere (or so I've read) and I just think she's not researched it at all. College are pushing for it now they know her UCAT, but I'm just like "hang on, do you know what's involved in a Cambridge application and the format of course etc?". I'm worried she's getting caught up in it and not thinking sensibly about it.

Can I ask whether you (or anyone else) knows whether the personal statement needs to be geared up to Cambridge rather than the other unis? She has lots of work experience etc which I think will be good for the other unis, but think that Cambridge won't care about that. What's your take on that?