Parental pushyness

[MJDidIt]

Has anyone ever met parents who push STEM/quantitative degrees onto their DC "because it's what pays the best".

E.g. a work colleague was telling me today that he really wanted to do history but his parents didn't let him so him doing PPE was the compromise (because of the economics aspect).

I have an old friend of mine from school staying. She has 2 DSs. My DDs are a little older and both hold Masters STEM degrees. I categorically assure anyone that their love of STEM has nothing to do with me (music teacher) but it was their choice - DH is a scientist. Friend's older DS was a very talented linguist at school and excellent musician but she told him to study Maths, Physics, Chemistry and Biology A levels. Kid has ADHD and is completely under the thumb so he did; his A level results weren't great and due to a chronic health condition, he will be starting a Foundation level STEM degree next year at 21. I think it's quite sad, but she won't listen.

My advice to my students is to do a degree that interests them. If they really want to be a doctor or engineer, fine. If they aren't sure and just want a graduate role, do what they enjoy and get the highest class of degree they can. No point in paying all that money to be miserable.

Lots of parents seem to think the only degrees worth doing are science based or vocational. It’s more common these days to hold this view than it used to be.

However, my DH (over 60) won a Cambridge History essay prize before applying to Cambridge but was persuaded by his parents to apply for Law instead. He played the game and did the whole inn of court thing and then came back to do a PhD in Law. This was when we met and phd students in History were heard to mutter ‘no one does a PhD in law’. He’s a law academic and loads of people do PhDs in law now and interdisciplinary stuff.

Niece had an awful sixth form experience because school and - to a lesser extent - parents had been suggesting she became an engineer since circa Yr 7. She started Maths, Physics, Chem. She changed her mind and did what I consider the sensible thing re A-Levels - study what you like and are good at and never something you are unsure of or don’t feel you have an interest or aptitude for. History, English Language and Geography. She then did a law degree, did well and works in HR role.

My parents believed humanities degrees were a gateway to all sorts of careers. I think in the 80s they were and they ought to be now but somehow aren’t regarded in the same way by various

those skills can also be learned in other ways, including from GCSE, A level, from STEM degrees, and from the university of life.

Writing an essay at GCSE or A level, where the question is set for you, is nothing like writing an extended essay or dissertation of maybe 10,000 words in your third year of a degree, where you are likely to have chosen the subject and planned much of the reading/research yourself.

Humanities students (should) learn how to construct an argument and back it up with evidence, a skill which is sadly lacking today - as evidenced by many MN threads, where opposing views are just shouted down.

My worry is not that too many people are taking Humanities subjects, but that too many Humanities degrees are not teaching students to listen to opposing views and weigh both sides of an argument.

And people can say the country needs people with STEM skills all they like, it won't magically increase students' aptitude and interest. It would have been a waste of everyone's time to try to push me into taking STEM subjects beyond what was compulsory at school.

One of mine did a degree in the absolutely niche creative area they are utterly passionate about. They got an excellent final grade (much higher than predicted by ability on entry) because they love it and were prepared to work insanely hard at it. They are very, very happy in their early-career foothills of that niche creative area, and earn enough to support themselves.

Another was much more pragmatic- identified a vocational degree, did the appropriate A-levels - some STEM, some not - got into the prestige uni for their course. Works hard but is not in any way as passionate or enthused, and is more than likely not to follow that career post-graduation. Is not very happy.

I would regard the happy young adult as our ‘success’, despite myself having a STEM PhD.

"too many Humanities degrees are not teaching students to listen to opposing views and weigh both sides of an argument."

Well, that's something we can agree on.

A good humanities degree will also teach how to gather data to support an argument objectively, rather than (for example) just collecting and citing social media anecdotes from people who agree with the premise.

I have seen this a lot. I'm frequently asked to give careers advice to young people who are "passionate" about medicine and find that when I talk to them alone it isn't their dream at all - it's their parents, or their school's dream. It's particularly common for bright girls who have done well at science GCSEs in my experience. I don't think it's neccesarily about money even, since as others have said, there's lots of ways to earn more money than as a doctor. Kudos is definitely a factor, plus to be honest a degree of stereotyping/a lack of imagination.
I have worked with many unhappy doctors who studied medicine largely because it was expected of them (I'd say at least half, probably closer to two thirds of my peers at medical school had at least one parent or grandparent in the profession when I started) and a good salary doesn't fully compensate for a job you hate.
It is a career that has a lot to offer but also a lot of negatives and I think you really do need to want to do it. Schools like to be able to advertise how many pupils they've got going to particular Universities and courses and that can take precedence over what is actually in the pupils' best interests. Many parents, in my experience, often only see the positives but the young person themselves potentially has a long time to experience the negatives and regret the decision if it is not genuinely their choice. I'm sure the same applies to lots of other professions too.
It's reasonable for parents to point out to their children potential pitfalls of paths they might want to take, but in the end they need to live their own lives and if we push them into careers that they aren't genuinely interested in it's unlikely to end well.

Mine didn’t even have loans ,we did / do support them fully (no fees as in Scotland )
I don’t think that gave me any right to interfere with their decisions
DC graduates with a double first in Humanities and got into a grad programme in finance
Her best friend at school was pushed by parents into doing a Stem course which she didn’t enjoy
She is now working part time for a Theatre group
Met her mother in the supermarket last week and she said how surprised she was about the situation as her DD was doing the sort of job they had thought my DD would end up doing

Several years ago I was looking round a museum with exhibits that had connections with science A grandparent and a little girl of about 4 were doing the same. The little girl was wearing a t shirt with Future Scientist printed on it. The grandparent was guiding her around and going into great detail and asking her lots of questions about the exhibits.

That girl would be a teenager now. I've often wondered about her career aspirations.

I'm Asian, I see a lot of people who start a second career doing creative/ holistic work having gotten their medical/ dental/ law degree and made their money. So the cultural expectations have not fulfilled them, but they have ticked the box by getting a 'proper job' and then moving onto something else

Yes. And said friend is hacked off my humanities degree son has a Big4 offer whereas her STEM degree child is still trying to find a job. It's tough out there and he will but she is incredulous my son has his offer without even having done STEM.

I can think of a few students I have had over the years that were pushed into a discipline they didn't want to study. I can't imagine what it must feel like.

Well done @Spirallingdownwards! I'm team humanities all the way

What snooty comments has she been saying?

Speaking of this. Let's talk about parents pushing universities onto their DC "because it's more prestigious". If you've come across this

Not to mention parents pushing their DC into university even though their DC isn't really suited/wants to do something else.

Humanities students (should) learn how to construct an argument and back it up with evidence, a skill which is sadly lacking today - as evidenced by many MN threads, where opposing views are just shouted down.

DS just finished sixth form. I can report that the English Lit, History and EPQ cover all these bases thoroughly. The MFL A Level (German) in his case also involves writing and presenting a project, although showing language skill is the greater goal. I don’t know about STEM subjects and how they roll and cover those skills because I only have one DC. I am a researcher and married to a researcher - he’s a law and economics person - I’m on the historical side of things. It intrigues me that you observe those specific skills as lacking these days. I think A Levels expect far more now than when I did them
in the 80s

"I don’t know about STEM subjects and how they roll and cover those skills because I only have one DC."

Constructing an argument and backing it with evidence is the basis of the entire scientific method. Mathematical proofs follow the same principle.

Then - as I expected - STEM does what humanities and social sciences do in this regard 👍🏼

But a STEM graduate can apply to general graduate schemes as well as specifically STEM jobs

Then - as I expected - STEM does what humanities and social sciences do in this regard

Do STEM students do exended pieces of written work?

When I was in Sixth Form, Maths/Science students were required to attend a weekly 'Essay Class' where they practised their essay writing skills. Otherwise they never did any writing once they'd dropped English Lang & Lit after O Levels.

It’s a difficult dilemma! I also think that the employment landscape has changed quite rapidly since many parents graduated.

I will try to find the report (IFS?), but there was an interesting study a few years back that linked average earnings to degree subject. From memory, Law, medicine and economics came out very well, unsurprisingly. However, doing a Fine Art degree actually had a negative impact on your earnings - you were less employable for having done it!

But I am not one to talk, having a whole collection of qualifications that probably haven’t paid their way!

Essays are needed for biology A level: https://filestore.aqa.org.uk/resources/biology/AQA-74023-ESSAY-TITLES.PDF

My DS does maths, further maths, physics and economics. He writes essays for economics. He also did an extended physics project and writes up lab reports.

He's planning to do a civil engineering degree so will need to write reports using clear and concise technical language.

There can't be many grad jobs that don't need some level of writing ability.

I think this is it: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/undergraduate-degrees-relative-labour-market-returns

My own son did "straight economics". He found the humanities students were a lot more interesting and were great to chat to about politics