Some universities will go bust

[GinForBreakfast]

Reported in the Times today. It must be so worrying for students joining or returning in September/October.

My question is around the regulator, who knows where the issues are. What should they be telling students and when? It seems cruel, especially to young people, to withhold information. It has financial implications as well - people moving, paying deposits etc.

I think that many people including nurses, doctors, engineers, software developers, accountants etc. may be better prepared for work by doing a degree apprenticeship. The government should spend more money on this not universities

@Runemum Who do you think delivers degree apprenticeships?

Yes, you've pointed out the big flaw in my argument! Obviously universities provide these degrees.
I guess I imagined that a degree apprenticeship costs a lot less as the students don't attend university all the time but I may be wrong. It certainly costs the student nothing and that is what I would wish for. Less student debt and better career prospects for them.

I guess I imagined that a degree apprenticeship costs a lot less as the students don't attend university all the time but I may be wrong.

You are wrong. They cost a university a lot more to deliver than a standard degree.
I'd love to offer my course as an apprenticeship but it's just not financially viable at the moment.

This is a terrible understanding of what universities actually do. They are not school, and academics are not school teachers spoonfeeding children. Sitting in class is only a small part of what students do and the resources they have access to.

For £9.25k they get taught by experts in the field - large classes for lectures and 15-30 in seminars and workshops), access to top of the range, latest versions, of relevant software (for example, if a student had to buy SPSS (a standard social science stats package) it would cost them £1100 a year alone, not to mention all the other specialist software they use at hundreds of pounds each), access to up to date, relevant research databases and well stocked libraries, employment and enterprise services, mental health services, computing space, group working spaces, etc. They pay for timetabling and rooming, exams and essay marking, dissertation supervision, working/studying abroad opportunities, etc.

They get massively subsidized gym membership in what are often state of the art gyms, classes, and competitive teams. They get access to a huge variety of clubs and societies (over 150 where my DD is going), a students union to meet friends, do coursework, and relax. They also get access to extracurricular lectures by prominent people including politicians, business people, and people eminent in their professions.

Larger universities often employ 4-5 thousand people in teaching and research, enterprise, HR, finance, business liaison (so young Tarquin can get a plum job at JP Morgan).

Universities are big ecosystems that benefit students, staff, and the local and wider community and economy. It is up to the student to take advantage of everything their institution has to offer - and it is a lot. A degree classification on a piece of paper represents only a small part of their education. In spite of massive increase in costs, fees have not increased for years, and at £9,250a year it is half the price of independent school, and is quite a bargain.

I think uni fees will go up soon but by how much? Also, will it be means tested/sliding scale? Should cheaper to run arts degrees be cheaper? How come eg Germany can still afford for students to study for free.

Interesting that it costs the university more as I thought the company paid. Please inform me how the funding works. I know that the software engineering degree apprenticeship offered by Jaguar has the degree delivered by Warwick University. So would Jaguar only pay for the training on site not the degree part?
From the reviews I have read of degree apprenticeships at various companies e.g. Barclays, Santander etc many have the degree part delivered in one day a week only or sometimes remotely for some of it or sometimes in a block of 5 weeks Many apprentices are saying the degree part is not delivered very well and is mostly remote with very little feedback from the university. This seems to be more like distance learning to me and the Open University degrees are cheaper than going to university.

I am still not sure university students are getting good value for money.
Subsidised gym membership doesn't sound much compared to what a private school would offer as part of their fees. Private schools have gyms, swimming pools, fields, sports clubs etc
They also have well stocked libraries and pay licence fees for software including access to JSTOR and other journals that universities have access to. Private schools also have access to careers services, mental health services etc. They also have exams to mark, timetabling in rooms etc

And they charge double. A private school, no matter how well resourced, doesn’t come anywhere close to what a university provides, or the range of opportunities. It just doesn’t have the scale required. It’s a different level entirely.

Interesting that it costs the university more as I thought the company paid. Please inform me how the funding works

The levy (paid by companies) pays the fee - the fee though is often way less than the £9250 'normal' students pay (set by IFATE). Additionally 20% of the entire fee is held back till the apprentice finishes. This means the income each year can be less than pro rata of £5k a year. For that the uni delivers the degree, meets apprentice employer termly, designs assessments geared towards what they're doing at work and all the bureaucratic nonsense in the back office.

But based on economies of scale, it should cost the university less money for their facilities. Even if they do have more fields for sport, bigger gyms and halls etc. , they also have more paying students. Based on an hourly tuition rate, university students are paying much more than private school students. On their portion of sports facilities etc, they are also paying more as the facilities are shared between thousands of students.

How many private schools have science kit that costs hundreds of thousands of pounds?!

Equipment worth hundreds of thousands of pounds is only used by undergraduates fleetingly. 99% of the equipment's use would be by academic researchers and postgraduates. Research grants and private enterprises usually pay for this equipment. It is not primarily used for undergraduate students and so the cost of this shouldn't really be coming out of their pockets.

It’s simply not possible to train first class engineers via apprenticeships. Apprenticeships can have a very narrow focus. The one the employer wants. Very few are MEng either so can limit professional progression of the engineer. 4 year engineering degrees are full on. They cover a great range of core and optional study. If I’m honest, this is so difficult to replicate at work, it’s very important for our engineers to have comprehensive academic study. Ditto doctors.

Nurse degrees are a recent invention and I’m not sure accountants need degrees. Certainly not accountancy degrees. Some forms of engineering must ensure safety. Engineering degrees are an academic discipline and certainly should never be just apprentices.

A £700 increase would be a HUGE help to unis.

Thanks for the information. I can see that for many universities it doesn't particularly make sense to offer courses financially. It must also be time-consuming to prepare bespoke course materials for a company.
I am surprised that more companies don't just use the Open University, which is designed for distance learning.
I have a postgraduate degree through the Open University and it was very good. My first degree was through a RG university but actually I thought some of the teaching through the OU was better.

Why would a company sponsor an employee at the OU? They can pay the apprenticeship levy and get a tailored course. Or, whst most do, is employ a graduate. The graduate has then paid everything. The employer does the post grad bit if applicable.

Some companies do run their degree apprenticeships through OU. Unilever have plenty in various sections of the business.

One of my relatives was an apprentice at an engineering company. He later did a degree through the open university whilst working. He has worked for the government in the UK and then was recruited to the US. It did not limit his progression. In fact, he says that many undergraduates and postgraduates that he has worked with just don't have the practical skills necessary. Another relative also supervises engineers. He says that some of them just can't solve problems very well. They can have firsts from the best universities but not the practical problem-solving skills.

Many accountancy firms are trying to recruit students now straight after A-levels. As you point out, they are saying that a degree is not necessary for accountancy and it will not hinder the students' job chances-I assume if they stay in accountancy.

Most grads get employment at 22 and then get the experience. It depends who they work for! However it must have taken him a long time to be CEng. MEng grads can be CEng fairly quickly and earn well if they learn what’s required. It also depends on what engineering. Not sure the government employs structural engineers. Also lots of people say they are engineers with no professional qualification at all.

DH always felt unis didn’t give enough real life issues to solve but working for the government is rarely practical. Working for a consultancy would be.

Universities get money from tuition, and research grants. Do they get any money directly from the government?

Are the fees topping up government funding? Or did they replace it completely?

If the Gov widened what employers could spend their apprenticeship levy on that would be hugely beneficial to both employers and unis/colleges.

Although that would risk the levy being spent rather than ploughed back into Gov coffers....

Pretty much replaced it completely. The clinical years of medicine get funding which goes to the NHS, and science and engineering get a few hundred quid per student in the form of a grant from OfS (in England).

The taxpayer is responsible for student loans! The students don’t pay fees to the unis. A few do but not many. Overseas students do. Therefore all funding for many students does come from the taxpayer. Initially. So any increase in fees is paid by ——- the taxpayer! Initially.

Universities are not school.

It will help them limp on.