UCAS

[gobbl]

My ds is taking 4 Alevels but the pressure is slit for him. He gets highly stressed and has at one time considered running away but changed his mind and came back home. I have consistently asked his school to let him drop to 3, and it is now near the end of year12 and he is starting his ucas application, thinking about his personal statement. One member if the leadership team is convinced that universities choose based on ucas points but keep this a secret. My ds wants to study maths and is looking to apply to Oxford and possibly Warwick and Durham and undecided on his safe options. He is doing maths, fm, physics, and computer science. He's looking to drop either physics or CS.

I don't know where the member of staff is getting his info but he has insisted to my ds that this is secret info that isn't on uni websites or on ucas but that this is what unis look at. That taking 4 a levels increases his chances. My ds could possibly do all 4 and get the grades but it will be highly stressful for him and I worry about his mental health.
Surely the senior staff member is wrong?

Sorry that’s nonsense. Just as well, as the vast majority of DC take three. Four A levels if one is FM is the most popular, true, but even then it’s not helpful to spread yourself too thin.

AAA is a lot better than ABBB and will get you into a higher ranked uni. UCAS points are only relevant for lower ranked unis, not Oxford or Warwick. Check the websites - no uni lists four A levels as an offer.

@gobbl that person is talking utter rubbish. There are no secret agendas. You need 3 A levels. Do what's right for your son and tell that person to bog off.
I say this as a teacher and UCAS advisor.

He is being lied to.

DD started doing the same 4 A levels as your DS, this was pre-reform so she did the AS exams and got all top grades. She decided she'd have a shot at Cambridge for engineering, her school recommended she dropped the CS to concentrate on high grades in the remaining 3. She got an offer - and this is at one of the very few (maybe only.) unis which does make some 4 A level offers.

With the greatest respect, if he is finding taking 4 A levels stressful, is Oxford really the right environment for him? DD took humanities but had to submit 2 essays and 2 stats/ economics worksheets each week in her first year, only to have her work ripped apart in each tutorial. Has he been to an open day there yet?

I agree that the vast majority of applicants take 3 A levels and a very small number take 4. The 4th A level around half the students are taking further maths. According to .gov stats from 2022, 65.8% take 3 A levels and 4.8% take 4.

You can contact Durham/Warwick/Oxford admissions now to find out what they want and get it directly from them. Admissions don't make it hard, they tell you exactly what they want applicants to have. The one thing you can start looking into is how many applicants have 4 A levels for maths at those unis so that your son knows what he is up against competition wise.

There is no secret UCAS points system and at the level of those universities they want grades not points, points are for universities lower down the rankings. A quick look at Durham G100 (UCAS code for maths courses art uni) says "A level offer – A star A star A including A star A star in Mathematics and Further Mathematics or A star A A including A star A in Mathematics and Further Mathematics and a suitable performance in an accepted mathematics test."

The best way to spend his summer is to look at what maths entry tests they want him to sit, some are this November and start prepping for that.

I think it's often expected for Maths candidates to have FM if their school offers it, and that is frequently a fourth A level. Maybe that's what his school is thinking? Certainly its grades not UCAS points.
My DD is going to Durham, not Maths though, and she has three A levels, one in Art which is not at all related to her subject. Her school frowned on four A levels (they were expected to do an EPQ) unless it was FM.

You can contact Durham/Warwick/Oxford admissions now to find out what they want and get it directly from them. Admissions don't make it hard, they tell you exactly what they want applicants to have.

Or better, your DS can. My dd contacted a few admissions tutors when she was deciding which A levels to do and got some very helpful replies. Their email contact details should be easy to find on the uni websites

@ErrolTheDragon I agree about the child contacting uni admissions but this particular child considered running away so his mental health is not great. To take the pressure off the parent could help compose an email and send it via the child's email address. It is worrying when the UCAS advisor appears to be giving the wrong advice and pressuring the student.

@gobbl is DS at a state school ? If he is one of the colleges will be 'attached' as an outreach college and will be v happy to help.

He only needs three, unis often don't look beyond that, but fm is most commonly a fourth rather than one of the three and there will be other candidates with those four. He needs to be able to demonstrate enthusiasm for subject as well. Perhaps speaking to Admissions tutors will help him clarify requirements and process,

He only needs three, unis often don't look beyond that, but fm is most commonly a fourth rather than one of the three

I don't think the characterisation of FM as being "the fourth subject", even though it's often taken (at least initially) alongside 3 others, is really accurate. For some of the most demanding maths and a few other STEM courses, it's definitely 'one of the three' of only 3 are taken. For my DD, heading for Cambridge engineering, CS was unambiguously the 'fourth subject' which could be dropped - the physics and 2 maths were required. For the OPs DS it's physics or CS which is his 'fourth' - he is, of course, correct to be considering dropping one of those.

echo everyone else, he needs 3 and i would not risk his mental health or his grades by making him do 4. If you are concerned then look at the uni websites and take your info from there.

He only needs three and Oxford admissions will look carefully at the whole application, don’t know about Warwick. There is no secret agenda. With oversubscribed courses, many strong applications won’t get an offer, but that doesn’t mean people with four A levels will be preferred.

Getting an offer and getting is just the first hurdle with these competitive courses though.
Making things less stressful for your A level year might make things more stressful for your university first year, if you are struggling to catch up or manage the extra workload.
I would say front loading at A level so you hit the ground running can sometimes be the better choice, particularly in this instance with three very closely related subjects, if only to give yourself the self-belief that you are just as good as everyone else.

On the other hand, burning out in your A level year won’t help either. It’s a nuanced decision, and for your DS to decide where he needs to prioritise.

There are no secret admissions rules at any university, including Oxford. Why would there be? It doesn't make any sense. How would universities benefit by inventing secret rules which would get in the way of being able to select the strongest applicants? And why would this staff member be the only person in the world who knows the secret rule (which is explicitly contradicted by all the public facing material universities put out)?

Oxford makes it very clear on all their materials that they do not use UCAS points, and that all offers are based on 3 A Levels. Doing 4 A Levels is only a good idea if it won't risk the target grades in the 3 they need.

The fact that quite a number of students at Oxford in fact have 4 A Levels is correlation not causation. It's not uncommon for high achieving academic students to push to be allowed do 4 A Levels (or to be at schools which encourage this). Those same students often turn out to be the ones who get offers, not because they are doing 4 A Levels but because doing 4 A Levels is a symptom of their general academic motivation and ability. There are also plenty of students at Oxford who have not done 4 A Levels, and it does not give you an advantage at admissions.

My niece is at Oxbridge studying Maths - and hates it. She is finding it incredibly intense. If your DS is finding the pressure of four A levels too much then I would look to different universities. He may be top of the tree academically at his school but everyone was in the same boat at Oxbridge which means when they get to Oxbridge most will just be middling in their group and half will be below average.

Good post @ErrolTheDragon - I have seen FM described on MN before (not by anyone here of course) as "not really counted as a separate A level" fgs!

The main reason it is so often taken as a fourth is that you obvs have to do maths in order to take FM - so it is often added to three others. It is very much an A level in its own right tho, and often mentioned by universities for maths-related courses.

If you want to take maths or a maths-heavy course at uni, especially at a uni that is higher ranked for that course (such as Warwick, Bath, Oxford, Cambridge, LSE) then FM is a lot more important than physics, or CS, or history or whatever else you are taking.

I think maybe the misconception has arisen bc FM was often taught in just a couple of lessons a week, bc the people taking it were ace at maths? My DCs' school, several years ago (when DS2 was in year 12 I think, and he is 21 now) decided to allocate a full A-level schedule to FM which was a good recognition that it is a) a proper A level (!) and b) challenging.

Mate of DS did maths at Bath with great success and his A levels were maths, FM and PE. No fourth. All good.

People are assuming 4 normal A levels are meant here (and plenty go to Oxbridge with 4 of those). No, this person is doing maths and further maths so of course is doing 2 others too. Physics is his only other traditional facilitating subject (along with maths) so certainly don't give that up. I would keep all of them up.

See @Xenia if you want to talk about facilitating subjects (a concept that has been dropped actually as I am sure you know) then maths, FM and physics are all on that list. So he has three. Even when FS was a thing, no uni asked for or recommended more than two anyway.

I really don't understand your implication that FM is not a "normal A level" (whatever that is). In what way out of interest? It is not some kind of add-on special paper or extra single exam. It's an A level. A very challenging and useful one (especially if your end goal at uni is maths, computer science or the like).

It doesn't really matter what others do, and whether there a secret rules or not.

Your ds is not coping.

He'd be better off dropping fm, as he'd then still have 3 solid A levels. But it's up to him

Even if your dcs were running away and struggling mentally? I'm not sure how old you are but times have changed, and mental health is seen as pretty important.

read other threads on here and maths is so difficult to get in to and further maths is usually taken.

I think school is right in that those 4 a levels are right if he really is targeting maths at a top uni. BUT if he’s unhappy what is the point? Time to calm down and rethink. What other courses could he do? What other unis could he consider? Or maybe don’t apply this year at all. Get the grades and then rest and make plans. There is no rush for any of this and health is all.

I wouldn't suggest your DS drops FM @gobbl as @Collexifon suggests, if he is hoping to study maths at a competitive university (such as the ones you list). It will be expected as it is offered by his school and without it I am told the first year will be that much harder.

Further maths is a perfectly solid A level.

Yes, don't listen to me, I'm no A level maths expert!

Tbf neither am I @Collexifon ! my ds is maybe but he failed to share his knowledge with me (beyond that even maths a level was tough - and he was relieved he decided against FM!)

Keeping those 4 a levels will best position him for a place at a top maths uni. But if he isn’t coping, that isn’t a particularly helpful fact. Dropping CS or physics (probably better CS to drop but unlikely to be critical) makes sense if he feels that will help him be better able to cope and stabilise, and to prepare and sit the MAT and TMUA next term. Doing well in those is more likely to result in a COWI maths offer than struggling with his 4 and doing poorly in the aptitude tests.

my son was in a similar position this time last year in humanities - doing 4 (mostly humanities) and very anxious and unhappy. He went to a school where historically most do 4 and I thought dropping one would hurt his chances given it was so usual for his cohort but decided that getting him over his issues was more important - if he blew up completely he wouldn’t making it through A levels at all. In the event, he dropped one in sept of year 13 and got an Oxford offer.

His school would have resisted a bit more I think in a double maths situation but needs must. FWIW I know of a boy who held a Cambridge CS offer on just double maths and either CS or physics, and he was from St Paul’s so again a school where 4 were usual. He didn’t make the FM grade, but that’s another story.

This all assumes that he feels up to tackling MAT and TMUA at all of course.