UCAS

[gobbl]

My ds is taking 4 Alevels but the pressure is slit for him. He gets highly stressed and has at one time considered running away but changed his mind and came back home. I have consistently asked his school to let him drop to 3, and it is now near the end of year12 and he is starting his ucas application, thinking about his personal statement. One member if the leadership team is convinced that universities choose based on ucas points but keep this a secret. My ds wants to study maths and is looking to apply to Oxford and possibly Warwick and Durham and undecided on his safe options. He is doing maths, fm, physics, and computer science. He's looking to drop either physics or CS.

I don't know where the member of staff is getting his info but he has insisted to my ds that this is secret info that isn't on uni websites or on ucas but that this is what unis look at. That taking 4 a levels increases his chances. My ds could possibly do all 4 and get the grades but it will be highly stressful for him and I worry about his mental health.
Surely the senior staff member is wrong?

Not if he wants to do maths, and is (I assume from his aspirations) a very good mathematician!

Apart from the fact he'll probably find maths, fm and one other easier than the three without fm, the top unis really do want FM - if he doesn't have it he'd be having to self teach assumed content if somehow he did get an offer . This was the case with the top engineering degrees let alone maths itself!

No, there is no 'of course' about it.

It's unwise for anyone to start doing just maths, fm and one other, in case either they find they've narrowed their options too much or they aren't as good at maths as they might have hoped.

But for those wanting to do maths, physics, most engineering, CS... maths, FM and one appropriate other subject is absolutely fine

yes indeed @ErrolTheDragon agree re initial narrowing of options - DS wanted to take maths FM and PE; I suggested he pick up something else and the something else was what he has ended up studying at uni! Thank goodness he took it. But yy there is certs no "of course" about doing four A levels with FM if set (as OP's DS is) on a maths uni career.

@Xenia Further maths is most definitely an A-level in its own right. It's just you can't take it without also taking maths.

Until recently Warwick seemed to be one of the few uni's that explicitly made an offer for those doing 4 A-levels to do maths there (A star, A Star, A, A) But they changed recently to just offering based on 3 A-levels and a good TMUA score.

He can most definitely still get an offer from top unis to do maths based on three A-levels and a good admissions maths test score.

My DD is in a v similar position. Doing 4, but wondering if dropping the 3 is sensible given that she needs to A stars in both maths and FM and do well on the entrance test/s.

3 very good or excellent A-levels is what the universities want. I agree with pp that if your son finds the exams process very stressful Oxford is not the right university for him.

I have no dog in this fight. If my kid was taking those 4 A levels and struggling mentally, I would get them to drop CS. No question. Physics is an extremely challenging subject and the 2 Math A levels are critical if that's what he wants to study.

My DS is going to apply to Oxford this year. His DH went. I raised with him the question of pressure, given the 8 week terms, coupled with the greater amount of work during that time than in universities which have longer terms. DH said yes, its tough but everyone finds it hard at the begining and you just adapt. So I hope that's of some help.

Many, many students will go to Oxford with Maths, Further maths and physics/computer science combination. You do not need 4.

Former Russell Group STEM admissions tutor here, DH is an RG Maths professor. Both of us have a lot of experience with students who were not successful in their Oxbridge applications and know Oxbridge admissions tutors

Lots of excellent advice here. The person OP refers to who is convinced there are admissions secrets infuriates me. Yes they are wrong. It is bad enough that a whole stratum of applicants already find Oxbridge intimidating beyond belief. Please ignore them, OP, and do what is right for your DS.

Admissions tutors like to help and the suggestion above that if DS is at a state school he contact the Oxford College partner is excellent. He should also feel free to contact Warwick and Durham - email is best. Whoever picks it up will route it to the best person. This is a good time of year for queries, before admissions heat up (in early August for prep work).

Having said that, every student deserves to thrive at university, and the Oxbridge tutorial system is very intense. It really is best for those robust souls who are prepared to be unable to complete their assignments week after week (because whatever they think of FM, it is really only baby steps in mathematical terms) and, depending on the tutor’s temperament, possibly to be criticised for this. Sensitive souls may well feel criticised even if they are not, because few tutors will go out of their way to reassure. The fact that you are there is meant to suffice.

Is this really the right environment for DS? It certainly isn’t clear from what you’ve written. To do his best, he needs to be happy. As he deserves to be. Best wishes to him

Sorry to hear your ds is this stressed. Year 12 is a very intense year but I think you have no choice but to advocate for his mental health. It really is the most important issue at this age. He can go to university any time. Pressure the school to let him drop to 3 (maths, FM and Physics is fine) and see what other support networks they can put in place for him. Then performance in the MAT or STEP is one of the most important factors leading to selection for interview or offers.

If you have time, have a read of the annual Oxbridge threads on here. Every child is super bright and they simply can't offer to everyone. There are many disappointed young people and families year after year but people move on and, dare I say it, thrive at other universities. There are very many other excellent maths degrees out there at top universities. I would say he should anyway have a spread of aspirational, achievable and 'bad exam day' choices he would be happy to go to.

Looking from different angle, neither my Dds who both did 4 A levels (one DD pred three A stars and one A, the other DD pred four A stars (with 2 grade 8 music so lots of UCAS points 😁, ) got into Oxbridge.
Dd1 went to Lse and did say many did have 4 A levels.
Sorry, don't seem to be able to remove the emojis from the bottom

😀😔

Dds school - None of the kids that have Oxbridge offers did 4 A levels except one that did psychology, maths, fm and Rs and has an offer for experimental?? (Sorry not the right word) psychology

Post-92 universities often use tariff points because less able and also socio-economically disadvantaged pupils may score better than insisting on specific letter grades. (And educational achievement often maps onto economic advantage).

But the universities you mention will make offers according to letter grades and in only THREE subjects! They may also require extra exams specifically around maths - I’m in the Humanities so know nothing about that.

But if your DS is under such pressure he really needs to drop to the standard 3 A levels and focus on those and try to enjoy himself. Humans tend to do better when we do things we like doing ….

but he has insisted to my ds that this is secret info that isn't on uni websites or on ucas but that this is what unis look at.

if we did this, we’d be acting illegally. No university admissions process I’ve been involved with - at department, Faculty, or central admissions office level, would deliberately act illegally.

That teacher is being highly irresponsible.

I suggest you get to the next Open Days of your DS’s target institutions and ask. Tell them this is the information your school is working from. Watch the Admissions Tutor explode!

I suggest you get to the next Open Days of your DS’s target institutions and ask. Tell them this is the information your school is working from. Watch the Admissions Tutor explode!

The teacher in question would probably claim that as evidence of a conspiracy to hide their real recruitment methods!

The only circumstance in which an applicant might present with 4 levels as a requirement is if one of those is General Studies (but I’ve not seen that on a UCAS form for yonks). At RG universities we don’t really count GS, although I’m told by PS colleagues it is a good predictor of success at university funnily enough.

The only mention I've ever seen of GS (and critical thinking) is an explicit exclusion from any offer. I.e. if someone has done GS they need 3 other subjects and only those will be relevant. I find it hard to believe anywhere ever actually required it.

No university I know required it, but I think a few of the lower tariff universities allowed it to be included in an applicant's point score.

But for the institutions and degrees that @gobbl 's DS is aiming for, GS would not be included.

I phrased my post rather ambiguously (phone typing on the run) - what I meant was that the only time that an applicant might present 4 A Levels might be when one of those is General Studies, but that it is never required, and rarely counted as one of the 3 A Levels at élite universities.

As far as I know, General Studies A-level disappeared from 2020 or so. (Shame, I quite enjoyed taking it as an extra when I was at school)...

what I meant was that the only time that an applicant might present 4 A Levels might be when one of those is General Studies,

Not sure what your point is - that's not true either. You 'present' all the A levels you're intending to take on the UCAS application, in the same way as you list all GCSEs whether they're particularly relevant or not.

I certainly know people at Oxbridge with 4 A levels. My sibling who read medicine at Cambridge did Biology. Chemistry, Maths and Further Maths (and 2 S levels which I don't think we have now)

Thank goodness Personal Statements are going out the window next year

They aren’t really, they are just being broken down into three parts.

@Ginko
A shame they are not properly getting rid of them.
So much effort into something that was utterly ignored when my kids and their friends went to Uni.

Not all unis ignore them, maybe the shame is that some do?
And I think they can have value - if done seriously - of getting the student to think through why they want to do a particular course and whether they're suited for it.

@ErrolTheDragon
I suspect every Uni pays attention to them for some courses
but I remember well that all the kids doing pure sciences or maths got their offers or refusals back within minutes or hours
at times when the statements cannot have been read.
They found it very dispiriting having put in so much effort.