Banking Career: Economics or Business - where??

[isthisweatherforreal]

DD is looking to have predicted grades of A/A/A - A*/A/A in Maths/History/Physics, also an EPQ.

She's keen on working in banking, possibly investment banking.

What would be the best course at uni for that type of path? Economics? If so where are the best/top ranked courses (I know she will apply for some aspirational as well as 'bankers'). Read different on different websites so some real insight would be great.

If she doesn't make her predictions and they end up being A/A/B, she may look at Business or Business / Finance or similar. Where would be best for that?

Thanks.

I spend a lot of time interviewing financial heavyweights in banking, investments, risk, compliance, legal, corp governance etc about their career paths, and almost all of them are very positive about their mentoring experiences, as both mentors and mentees.

Possibly worth your daughter connecting early with a body like Women in Finance who may be able to hook her up with a mentor in IB. From my experience talking to people (absolutely none in the market I may add, my maths skills are limited to say the least!) it's one of the best ways to meet the right people and get to the right places.

Spring and summer internships are helpful in securing competitive banking job offers. Internship applications are time consuming in years one and two alongside degree work at the top unis but the payoff for DS was having job offers at the start of the final year of his degree.

Ex proprietary trader and head of emerging markets at JP Morgan on 9/11 and I'd still take the kid who can figure out the rubix cube unseen in 5 minutes over someone with a retentive memory who can ace exams.

Clearly, no-one who shines in the front office is an idiot but there are idiots in the middle office and lots of them in the back office. All relative of course but when you're dealing with the 1%, then you still have the 0.01% 😀

Unless you are outside the envelope, perhaps way outside the envelope, you will earn more and have a longer and more fulfilling career working in the back office, which these days includes financial crime and compliance because you are amongst far weaker individuals and you will find it easier to shine. You should be able to make £100k by year 3 and £250k by year 5/7. Nearly enough to buy a small flat in Zone ???

I have a friend who is now an MD in a USA bank in Singapore who wouldn't get much past gopher in the front office and who never had the looks or languages for sales. Go hang me, it is what it is !

Loads of footballers collect £500k a year being 4th string and getting a 20 year career. Nothing wrong with that.

Had they gone too hard after first team, they'd fail and be on the dole.

@likethislikethat This is very interesting and useful thanks

Agree with this
DD received several Spring Break placements and as a result was offered four Summer internships .
She chose to do a summer internship at Citigroup and will hopefully get a grad role.
She is at Bristol

UCL isn't a bad place to start.

For DD's aspirations in banking and investment banking, choosing the right university course is crucial. Below is an analysis of potential courses, their relevance to her career goals, and insights on the top-ranked programs available in the UK.

1. Recommended Courses for Investment Banking

Economics Economics is a highly regarded degree for aspiring investment bankers. It provides a strong foundation in analytical and quantitative skills, essential for understanding market dynamics, financial systems, and economic theory. Top Universities for Economics:

• University of Cambridge: Renowned for its rigorous economics program and strong links with the financial industry.
• London School of Economics (LSE): Offers a world-class economics curriculum with numerous networking opportunities in London’s financial sector.
• University of Oxford: Offers a comprehensive economics degree with a strong analytical focus and opportunities for internships.
• University College London (UCL): Known for its high academic standards and connections to the finance industry.
• University of Warwick: Has a solid reputation for economics and finance, with strong ties to employers.

Finance Another excellent option is a Finance degree, which often incorporates elements of economics, accounting, and financial analysis. This path is highly relevant for investment banking and equips students with practical skills. Top Universities for Finance:

• University of Cambridge: Offers specialized finance courses within its economics program.
• London Business School: Renowned for its finance programs, providing exceptional networking opportunities.
• University of Manchester: Known for a robust finance curriculum and strong employability statistics.
• University of Edinburgh: Offers a good balance of theory and practical applications in finance.
• University of Bath: Offers an excellent finance program with strong industry connections.

1. Backup Options if Predictions Fall Short (A/A/B)

If DD's grades end up being A/A/B, courses in Business or Business/Finance can still lead to a successful career in banking. These programs typically emphasize practical skills and real-world applications. Business A Business degree provides a broad understanding of various business functions, including management, marketing, finance, and operations. Top Universities for Business:

• University of Warwick: Strong reputation for its Business School and high employability rates.
• University of Manchester: Known for its comprehensive business programs and strong links to industries.
• University of Leeds: Offers a robust business curriculum and a vibrant student community.
• University of Bristol: Provides a solid business education with a strong emphasis on employability.
• University of Edinburgh: Offers a well-rounded business program with an international perspective.

Business/Finance Programs specifically combining Business and Finance are particularly relevant for students looking to enter investment banking. Top Universities for Business/Finance:

• University of Southampton: Offers specialized programs in finance within a business context.
• City, University of London (Cass Business School): Known for its strong finance programs and connections to the financial industry.
• University of Kent: Offers a good business/finance curriculum with practical experience opportunities.

Conclusion For DD's initial aspirations in investment banking, pursuing a degree in Economics or Finance from a top-ranked university such as LSE, Cambridge, or Oxford is highly advisable. Should her grades not meet expectations, shifting to a Business or Business/Finance program at reputable institutions like Warwick, Manchester, or Edinburgh can still provide valuable pathways into the banking sector. Encouraging DD to engage in internships, networking events, and extracurricular activities related to finance during her university years will also enhance her employability and prepare her for a career in investment banking.

As an economics undergrad thousands of years ago, I don’t get this obsession with maths. Yes, sure, you do need the A level, but I genuinely struggle to remember anything on the curriculum that was super maths heavy. But also worked as a research assistant for a macro professor and I all I remember doing is running lots of regressions - doesn’t take a genius. So imho no need for FM at all and perfectly fine to choose a university that doesn’t require it. Caveat all of this was long, long ago but I don’t think economics changed that much. I read anything published in econ now (popular stuff like Mervyn King etc not Nobel prize dissertation) all you need is common sense and a decent IQ not maths.

Re IBD, as a former bulge bracket banker myself and now a client - all you need to demonstrate to get through the sift is high achievements in multiple areas of your life (academics/sports/community/arts/drama/music, etc) - combo of 2 of these plus a part-time job while on track for a first will get you an interview. You may study classics, history, economics etc. really doesn’t matter. How to do well in an interview is a different matter. Once you get the job as an analyst in IBD - you are nothing more than a spreadsheet/ppt monkey - all you need is lots of stamina, ruthless ability to prioritise, connect with seniors/peers/clients and very, very thick skin. Not high IQ or further maths. As a matter of fact, high IQ rather than pragmatism and ability to build strategic relationship may be a disadvantage. IBD is not a place for intellectual pursuits or seeking intellectual truth. Actually the most successful MDs I work with are successful because of ability to build relationships and bring the best team to the table, a lot of them are far from intellectual giants.
so study econ if she wants but that is far from the only or even a necessary means to get into IBD

Used To be as all milk round recruitment was “on campus” but now it’s all online for all. Obviously, events/chats with alumni help but it’s not like 20 years ago where we got a book of CVs and all the interviews were done on campus over a few days.

As a matter of fact, high IQ rather than pragmatism and ability to build strategic relationship may be a disadvantage. IBD is not a place for intellectual pursuits or seeking intellectual truth. Actually the most successful MDs I work with are successful because of ability to build relationships and bring the best team to the table, a lot of them are far from intellectual giants.

I'd agree with all of this. I worked in the corporate finance department of an investment bank and the most successful MDs were excellent at sales and client management, nothing to do with their academic ability.

You work hideously long hours so the main thing we looked for at interview was people we felt we'd want to work with. Everyone was reasonably intelligent but also fun with good people skills. Off the top of my head, we had geography, English, history and all sorts of grads. There were no more economics grads than any other degree.

Trading is a bit different and my friend recruits a lot of mathematicians from the top London unis. But investment banking is a diverse umbrella and you definitely don't need to be an economics genius to get a graduate job in many departments.

Different jobs require different skills?

Both DH and DS would describe themselves as economists. DH studied PPE at Oxford with a Masters from Manchester. DS studied Econometrics and Mathematical Economics to Masters level at LSE. DS managed not to write a single essay during his masters. Some articles he read barely contained any words, just equations. DH did not even try to read DS' PhD. A completely different subject.

Yamantau's post seems to be focussing on the more mathematical courses (and I would add Imperial and perhaps Warwick's MORSE to the list). Plenty of other good courses for those who want jobs that involve writing and communication skills. Durham is one of the obvious ones.

Something I wonder is how many Econ students go into uni as an "aspiring investment banker" and then really that finance isn't really for them.

I agree completely with @AliceInWonderland24 and @blue345.

[I've worked in banking, primarily IB front/middle office, for almost 30 years. I have an economics and French degree, didn't do maths A level but covered the equivalent as part of my first year undergrad).

Everyone applying has outstanding academics. Most will speak several languages and/or have lived/worked overseas, and many/most will have impressive extra-curricular activities. The fretting over further maths and/or which is the best university (from a selection of excellent ones anyway) becomes a bit meaningless to be frank. My team's latest intern started last month. He already has a masters (from Durham), and has lived overseas (although unusually he's actually white British - quite rare for our interns these days). Actually all our interns seem to have masters (it's not a requirement!) but what makes the ones we hire stand out is their interpersonal skills and their extra-curricular interests. To be accepted, they need to have "something about them", much more than just good academics. This is the same as our grads and experienced staff hiring policies. It's a given that you're bright. Being bright is effectively our equivalent to maths and English GCSE in that it doesn't even open the door, but it may stop the door being slammed shut in your face.

Yamantau's post seems to be focussing on the more mathematical courses (and I would add Imperial and perhaps Warwick's MORSE to the list).

I think Yamanatu’s post is ChatGPT 😂

@Needmoresleep I don’t think we are disagreeing. I am talking run-of-the-mill courses and run-of-the-mill IBD jobs like M&A analysts, leveraged finance, industry groups, ECM analysts etc. Honestly, you just need to be reasonably numerate and analytical - maths needed is arithmetic and occasionally basic algebra/optimisation. It’s not even A level. Derivatives/trading/quant finance are areas I know nothing about and they may well need advanced maths. Risk modelling does too obviously. But I would argue it’s more niche.

I am labouring the point because these posts pop up again and again.