Banking Career: Economics or Business - where??

[isthisweatherforreal]

DD is looking to have predicted grades of A/A/A - A*/A/A in Maths/History/Physics, also an EPQ.

She's keen on working in banking, possibly investment banking.

What would be the best course at uni for that type of path? Economics? If so where are the best/top ranked courses (I know she will apply for some aspirational as well as 'bankers'). Read different on different websites so some real insight would be great.

If she doesn't make her predictions and they end up being A/A/B, she may look at Business or Business / Finance or similar. Where would be best for that?

Thanks.

Economics is pretty broad. Some courses (Cambridge, LSE, UCL, Warwick and now IC) are known to be very mathematical, so their graduates are sought after by some employers for some jobs.

Which does not mean that graduates need to have taken a highly technical/quantitative course to land a good job. There are well regarded economics courses (Oxford and Durham come to mind) which are broader and still highly sought after. Unfortunately these too are very competitive.

Your DD needs to do some research on who might accept her.

The link below lists courses by “entry standards” which is a reasonable proxy for which will be more competitive.

https://www.thecompleteuniversityguide.co.uk/league-tables/rankings/economics?sortby=entry-standards

If I were her I would look at Bath, Bristol, Nottingham, Manchester, Exeter, KCL and perhaps York, including economics and management courses. Bath with a year in industry might be a particularly good fit.

As always I disagree with Tizer this time around Scottish Universities. Scottish students don’t pay fees, English students do. Scottish courses can only afford so many Scottish students, so it can be easier for a student from England to gain a place.

International students pay more than anyone. Hence they are sought after. The Scottish unis have particular issues balancing “home” students and international students on sought after courses. The Scottish government effectively caps their home student numbers. The international students subsidise them. There is an issue that widening access has meant it’s difficult for many to access the courses.

Yes, but there are two categories of ‘home’ student in Scotland. Scottish and RUK. RUK pay more so can have a competitive advantage over Scottish students when it comes to admissions.

But not necessarily over international students who can pay 3 times as much. They are the most valuable and most commentators have noted a squeeze on other students.

The OPs DC is English. Some people are suggesting she consider Scottish universities, which is a good idea. There is some anecdotal evidence that RUK students have an advantage over Scottish students because they bring in more money.

Mentioning international students is so much whataboutery and diverts the thread. If you want to discuss the impact of international students on Scottish admissions I suggest you start a seperate thread.

Do you? How impertinent of you.

2022 stats for Edinburgh: undergraduate largest = rUK, then Scottish, then overseas, then EU. Not sure when EU stopped bring charged as Scottish. Gender split is fascinating c. 18000 f vs c. 11000 m

Would she consider actuarial science?

Economics - not quite the same. FOI request. Overseas are 50%.

Thanks for confirming English students (rUK) have a better chance of an offer than domestic Scottish. 55% vs 40%.

St Andrews is highly competitive for economics for RUK students - I don't have the numbers for Scottish students but in 2022/3 there were 60 RUK offers for 878 RUK applicants. That's like a 7% offer rate. They do take the PS into account more than other unis I think and it's a broader approach to the degree (less mathsy) but loads of straight A stars also rejected from there.

Not always. They are obliged to offer a certain number of places to Scottish Students hence taking more international to increase funds leaving the smaller number of places for many courses for the RUK.

So Tiger is correct in that the obligation to make Scottish offers leads to more international and fewer RUK places than would otherwise be available.

Whether Scottish universities are more accessible to Scottish or RUK students will presumably depend on demand and the number of ring-fenced places for Scottish students.

Pre Brexit, when Scottish Universities had to treat EU students, other than RUK, as home students, Edinburgh economics was accepting lower grades for RUK students than its comparators and, almost certainly from Scottish students.

I don't know whether the number of ring-fenced places has changed post Brexit, but it is more than possible, as suggested by Tizer's own stats, that acceptance rates for RUK students for some courses at some Universities may be better. International students may be a red herring in that though they pay more, once you get beyond the super competitive courses Universities can find themselves paying a price for higher fees in terms of recruiting less able students.

Economics...supply and demand, and a need to drill down below headline stats.

Nice new degree from Warwick for this year - worth a look I would think for sure.

warwick.ac.uk/study/undergraduate/courses/bsc-economics-management

Doesn't place any additional benefit on having fmaths - not needed/expected but does need an A in maths.

A star, A A typical offer. Run between economics dept and Warwick Business School.

I currently work in finance and only recently left a trading role at a major IB. Most of my grad class from 5y ago were from target schools with people from semi-targets mostly in sales roles. Your daughter will have much better chances going to a target uni. It doesn't matter so much what she studies if she goes to a target uni (I've worked with Oxbridge Philosophy, Geography, Middle Eastern Studies grads...) but the higher the prestige, the easier it is. There were lots from LSE, Imperial (mainly go for trading roles), Oxbridge, UCL and Warwick. It was also quite an international intake as is the case at all IBs. You're also up against the likes of people from top European business schools eg HEC, Bocconi.

Having said all of that, if she gets a First (ideally) at a Bristol (or similar) and has solid experience eg spring weeks and internships (which are v hard to get even from a target), she will be fine. Extracurriculars/leadership roles are looked at favourably.

I work in IB, at a globally elite institution.

Do not do a placement year degree. That will honestly be repulsive to those bankers. Do a normal three year BA in economics, management, maths...but you're going to need a First. The crucial thing to hit are summer analyst positions aka "work experience". I agree with a PP - the competition is global. Most of the first years are bilingual, have interned at more than one bank, may have CFA etc.

I hope she's researching all this as much as you are. You can always spot what juniors will make it to MD and above - it's the tenacious conscientious ones that take the time to think and understand.

In fairness OP's DD is not predicted the grades for the LSEs etc, and so realistically may not be aiming at the top tier IB jobs, at least to start with.

I am not an expert, but DH works in a City adjacent part of the public sector and regularly reads Linked In profiles, spotting people who, say, went to local Universities such as Bournemouth or Huddersfield and then into back office operations locally and a move to the City and then on and up. Indeed a former, and infamous, member of a list of top female bankers, Pips Bunce, studied at Anglia Ruskin then onto UBS, Goldman Sachs and Credit Suisse, albeit in IT. As others have suggested, accountancy post University can also act as a way in.

I guess the trick is to the best you can at each stage and work hard. So get the best A levels you can, and into the best University, and hit the careers office straight away to try for summer internships. There are a few for first years, and the experience of applying is useful in itself. Look at other ways of broadening a CV. (Perhaps volunteer in a CAB etc.) Talk to others especially in the year above about what they have done and where they are going. Get the best degree you can and carry on researching hard and working hard.

Placement year degrees may be sniffed at but Bath is still worth looking at. Good placements are very much their USP and the OP's DD main aim will be to get her foot in the door.

The mention of languages is interesting, albeit a bit off topic. Being surrounded by lots of peers at LSE wanting to go into IB put DS off completely despite the fact that a Masters in Econometrics (EME) meant he was well placed to apply. But even applying for academic jobs post PhD, not having a second language is limiting. The field is very international and his peers have been able to apply for English speaking posts and those using their native language. A big advantage especially for Spanish and Mandarin speakers. Having an EU passport also seems to be useful meaning international employers can transfer you more easily. There again we are lucky to have access to good Universities and a large finance industry.

That's interesting about target unis given all the Talk about employers switching to blind recruitment

She's keen on working in banking, possibly investment banking.

I worked in corporate finance (M&A advisory). If she's interested in this area (seriously long hours but seriously big bonuses), her degree doesn't really matter and it's a bit of a misnomer that it needs to be maths or economics related. I did geography and my colleagues did all sorts from History to English. Business and finance degrees weren’t so liked (with a few exceptions such as Warwick), they’d rather have a purely academic subject. I appreciate this may be short sighted.

Most of my colleagues were either accountants or lawyers (I did my ACA at a big four firm) with three or four years post graduation work experience. The grads who went straight in as analysts were worked even harder and always felt at a bit of a disadvantage.

When I was in CF, there was myself and one other female fee earner in a department of 100 male fee earners. As a result, they were desperate to employ women. I'm now in the asset management side of IB and the same is still true. Most firms want to project an image beyond being exclusively male so you're made to feel welcome (but working in a cut throat environment with alpha males isn't for everyone).

It would be helpful if she knew what area she wants to go into. If she wants a quant role, then pure maths is the way forward. What you learn at uni will be behind whats happening on the floor, but maths or physics is what they want to evidence youll be able to pick it up. But if its more sales/client relationships/asset management then it doesn't really matter, theyll hire from most subjects if youre at a target uni and you have the personality. Membership of university societies such as the finance, investment soc is helpful, or debating if more client side. Ops and tech will hire from courses like comp sci, and although the money is not as good (still v good thou), the work/life balance is much better. M&A is later starts but working all night, anything on the trading floor is often super early mornings, but you can leave at a normal time.

The mention of languages is interesting, albeit a bit off topic. Being surrounded by lots of peers at LSE wanting to go into IB put DS off completely despite the fact that a Masters in Econometrics (EME) meant he was well placed to apply. But even applying for academic jobs post PhD, not having a second language is limiting.

I work in IB for one of the big global names (mentioned on this thread). I've been in IB for 20+ years (in various roles/banks/countries). Our new crop of summer interns just started and in my area at least, they all have Masters (in various STEM related subjects) and they all speak at least 2 languages fluently. Our business is global and it is necessary that staff, even interns, can fit seamlessly into a global environment. For an intern (and grad trainees), the easiest way to demonstrate that is an international education/background and/or competency in at least 2 languages. As other posters have pointed out already, the competition for these roles in the big name banks is global rather than national, and the standard is extremely high.

@HundredMilesAnHour is your area Front, Middle or Back office ?

UCL will take you without Further Maths at A level for Economics:

www.ucl.ac.uk/prospective-students/undergraduate/degrees/economics-bsc-econ#:~:text=UK%20applicants%20qualifications&text=A1%2CA%2CA%20at%20Advanced,being%20offered%20at%20Advanced%20Higher.

DS is in his first year of a banking career after graduating last year. His A Levels are in Maths, Physics, Economics and Politics. He applied to Cambridge, St Andrew’s, Durham, Bristol and Bath for a variety of Economics/Economics joint courses with all A stars predicted.

@lastdayatschool I've worked primarily with Front Office but my dept can work anywhere across the bank if the work is considered high priority enough by senior management. Can't say much more or it might be outing (sorry!)