This can’t be true about pupillages - can it?

[Carlacollection]

DS’s girlfriend has a 2.1 in law from Oxford and has just secured a pupillage. She is gutted for her friend who got a 1st in law from Oxford but didn’t get one - even though she is genuinely gifted. Her friend says that, for women, being very easy on the eye is a prerequisite to gain pupillage - surely that can’t be right?! The friend was told this by a practising (female) barrister.

Maybe she didn’t interview well?

Well, it’s the same as for any interview process. Humans make the decisions and different humans look for different things. All pupillages are not equal either.

I mean, I think being pretty (but not too attractive) and smartly turned out helps in interviews, yes. Pretty privilege is well known.

It’s definitely not a requirement, but does help.

Pupillages are extremely competitive, having an Oxford first is not enough if she didn’t do well at interview.

It’s generally true about life! There have been a tonne of studies on it. Attractive people find it easier to get on in life. This is sadly true and I doubt puppilages are any different.

The pupillage process I am most familiar with starts of completely blind - the first cut is done on questions without the reviewers seeing anything to do with the candidate - age, sex, school, university, etc. In later stages there will be an interview and interviewers are subject to human foibles so I can't say that looks would never sway things but it would be pretty short sighted - good people in chambers enhances the reputation for everyone and high earning members help spread the cost so it would be counterproductive to hire a good looking duffer. And looking around the female Bar, whilst there are some very attractive women, there are also plenty of plain Janes.

Unfortunately it will be an element for some recruiters, even if subconscious.

But there are also so many other elements. Academic brilliance alone isn't enough, other skills are needed too.

Why would that be hard to believe, of course appearance influences things, if everything else is equal it could be the deciding factor

In surprised you're surprised

And getting a first at uni doesn't mean youre automatically a better employment candidate

Years ago (I graduated late 80s) one of my professors said X will get a first, but will be unlikely to get a great job/position since X lacked ‘soft’ skills.

Maybe DS’s girlfriend’s friend is like that?

well indeed, since she's not very subtly insinuating that her friend got a highly sought-after position largely because of her looks...

I remember from "This life" that Anna got hired because of her legs.

That was fiction…

Academic brilliance alone is not enough. Good communication skills, a pleasant co-operative personality, an attractive appearance, etc. are also factors.

I know an amazing woman who is indeed talented and charming but was 27st. when she secured her pupillage so not traditionally easy on the eye.

How gutted exactly?

Not quite sure who’s insulting who here tbh.

Were both your DD and her friend applying to the same sets/ type of sets because some areas of law and certain sets are far, far more competitive than others. That will play a bigger part in terms of who gets a pupillage offer than looks.

Also, women are very often on the final round interview panels and don’t have the same rep as men for being swayed by looks :)

Her friend says that, for women, being very easy on the eye is a prerequisite to gain pupillage

Ouch...I think this sounds very sour grapes. I guess this might be first ever rejection?

A 2:1 or first doesn't guarantee a job but it certainly helps with securing an interview.
She should just reflect that it's highly competitive and another door will open for her. In the meantime she would do well to focus on any skills or experiences she maybe lacking (rather than focus on physical attributes of her friend)

Here are all 5 pupils from one set of very good chambers https://www.brickcourt.co.uk/news/detail/all-five-brick-court-pupis-offered-tenancies (quite a few from abroad which is interesting - NZ, Australia, Ireland) All of course very bright, exceptional.

@Carlacollection

My DD is a barrister and is on the Pupillage selection panel at Chambers.

Your DS's GF will surely know that vast numbers don't get Pupillage at the first attempt. DD did with a 2:1 not in law and not from Oxford. When DD started her Barristers training course, around 20/400 had Pupillage. Obviously as everyone puts in applications, the success rate grows. However some will be trying for several years. It's quite usual to go off and do a masters or do a paralegal job or work for a judge to enhance cv. What every candidate must do is show they have gone the extra mile. At times academics alone are not enough.

For what it's worth, Firsts from Oxford, Outstanding in the Barrister exams and a good hefty sum from an Inn of Court scholarship should help get Pupillage. So with a fair wind she should get something but of course presenting well, speaking clearly and doing the selection tests well matter. Plus Chambers look for different attributes. Although barristers are self employed, "fit" matters. Will the pupil get on with others? Will they be an asset to the Chambers? Chambers take 20% plus of earnings so barristers must get work and be marketable in order to contribute.

Not sure it's really about appearance but no applicant should think smart appearance doesn't matter at the Bar, it often does. It's so competitive, everything matters.

Regarding Brick Court: the issue faced by many pupils is that some Chambers do not routinely keep their pupils and offer them tenancy. Some recruit heavily from rejections elsewhere. DDs friend had this issue. A starred first from Cambridge. If the fit isn't right, even the gifted are not offered tenancy. They go elsewhere and often do very well. So not getting anything first time around is nothing to worry about.

Just to add: all 5 of the pupils at Brick Court had worked before getting Pupillage . Not one came straight from uni. All have significant research or work backgrounds. So yes, getting into some Chambers is tough: a strategic approach is needed.

I am following this thread as my daughter wishes to be a barrister and will (hopefully) be reading law. How on earth do you decide where to apply to for bar exams and pupillage? We have no connections and DD is going to be going to Bristol for law.

@TizerorFizz do you mind me asking how your DD got a pupillage? You say she didn’t study law so no mooting experience. And didn’t go to Oxbridge. How did she choose where to apply for?

The type of work will also matter. I once had a lovely tenant who was a barrister. From a working class ethnic minority background and a degree from Middlesex University. She got picked up via some diversity scholarship scheme, but had then thrived. As she should. She was bright, hard working and very personable. The last was important. She did criminal and mainly defended people from her community who were over represented when it came to a specific form of fraud. Her clients trusted her in a way that they may not have trusted someone with a starred first from Oxbridge, and she was also able to work well with judges and others within the system. (She had some very funny stories. She was under little illusion about some of her clients, whose protestations of innocence against all the evidence could be impressive.) She earned well, though nowhere near what some of the elite barristers will earn, but probably a lot more than many others who, despite getting through the system, earn very little. She seemed to enjoy her work but probably because she had all the right qualities. I assume that as well as academic horsepower, chambers will be looking for fit.

Yes it's completely dependent on type of work and the reputation/ calibre of the chambers in question. Also, getting pupillage is the first of two critical steps. Not great if after pupillage you're not offered a tenancy. You may get a third six elsewhere but are more likely to have to trade down rather than up.

A 2.1 without more wouldn't get you near a pupillage at the sort of chambers that Xenia has linked to.

definitely not true. I’m a barrister.

getting pupillage is extremely competitive and there are a lot of issues at the Bar but I genuinely don’t think this is one of them.

being reasonably well turned out and looking professional is important at interview of course (don’t turn up in jeans!) but that’s a completely different thing from being “attractive”. I never wear makeup or wear anything other than a black suit

I have used Brick Court a fair bit and I put that link up because of the looks comment on the first post - they all look very professional but they are not being chosen because they look like young female super models. It is their exam results and experience that got them there.

Karengardens, it is not usually about connections. It is just a matter of applying but is really competitive. I have a client who called me last year because his son after I think 3 or 4 years of working after his degree had got pupillage. It sounded like the father's greatest day of his life and I am glad he was so happy for his son. Most lawyers by far are solicitors not, barristers and your daughter should certainly consider both careers during her law degree (I am a solicitor). She can apply for both pupillage and for training contracts during her law degree and should look at websites to see the deadlines eg law firms have some first year schemes and then formal applications for paid vacation schemes from which may trainees are recruited to firms that pay for the post grad year/ exams (for future solicitors). It is not something people should leave until they finish their degree. My twins and one of my other lawyer children went to Bristol by the way and loved it.

My twins qualified as solicitors earlier this year and they have several cousins doing law/considering law so I certainly seem to be full of family members interested in a legal career and applying. I just heard today that one of my twins had his first online session with his mentee - I didn't even know he was mentoring someone! It is someone 8 years older than he is who is a paralegal elsewhere and it seems to be some kind of voluntary thing his team all do.