This can’t be true about pupillages - can it?

[Carlacollection]

DS’s girlfriend has a 2.1 in law from Oxford and has just secured a pupillage. She is gutted for her friend who got a 1st in law from Oxford but didn’t get one - even though she is genuinely gifted. Her friend says that, for women, being very easy on the eye is a prerequisite to gain pupillage - surely that can’t be right?! The friend was told this by a practising (female) barrister.

@Xenia You are a well known solicitor with solicitor DC. They had nearly every advantage going. Many of DDs barrister friends are first in family to have a law career let alone a parent who can point them in the right direction and help at every turn. It’s competitive but it’s important to make it absolutely clear DC can, and do, get Pupillage and tenancy without any parental or insider help at all. It says so much about them that they do.

Tizer it's also important to say that having a parent who has been in the zone doesn't mean that the parent has any input with their DCs applications. We aren't in the 1980s any more. My own feeling is that it would be a massive negative these days. I have three lawyer DC. Two Magic Circle (although one has now gone left field to Human Rights) plus one at the London Bar. I had absolutely no influence on their success other than - only arguably - genetically. All of my DC are showing far more promise than I ever did. In terms of getting taken on, I have to say that my looks were mentioned subsequently, although tbf I was taken on a very long time ago. But you know - one interview and bingo :) What's not to like? Apparently I blushed prettily at a double entendre at interview. Those days are long gone, and so much the better.

@Karolinska

DC who have parents who can advise at every turn prior to getting a job and even giving dc a job do help but obviously actually getting the job where there’s competition is down to DC. No one else.

DH and me had no idea about anything to do with law other than using a solicitor to draw up a will! Some dc get amazing guidance. I’m afraid mine had none. I would never have known what to advise so I didn’t. I will admit to proof reading DDs Pupillage application. Im ok at that but nothing else.

Every single aspect of any advice from me is what I have learnt subsequently and what I should have looked at before dc applied for anything!

Of course it’s a factor
Shouldnt be but very naive to think it isn’t

@Motheranddaughter Prove it. How do you know this is the case? Many employers want young employees to reflect their values. Chambers expect “court ready” dress and most people pick up what that is after doing mini pupillages. That’s not the same as favouring the best looking candidate.

The OP cited this: that for women, being very easy on the eye is a prerequisite to gain pupillage

So far more than a mere factor.

Yes but where is the actual proof? We don’t know if the DD with the first didn’t interview well, didn’t have anything extra to offer, didn’t do the tests very well, didn’t turn up on time even! It’s often a very fine line between a “yes” or a “no thanks” and a first doesn’t always trump other candidates if other areas are lacking: it wholly depends on the process of selection. It also depends on selection of Chambers and whether they were right sets for her skills. None on which we know. Just an assertion that women should be “easy in the eye” to succeed. It’s extremely difficult to prove this. However if Lady Hale has an opinion on this, I’d believe her.

Lady Hale taught me law at university in the 80s. In more general terms if you look good you do tend to do better in life in many jobs, but all the other factors like good exam results are more important than looks. I suppose there will be some places working very hard to show diversity eg more muslim women or more BAME people so in that sense looks may well matter (although that still leaves the poor old white working class boys from my native NE England high and dry as ever - oh I suppose unless they self declare as trans and turn up in a dress at Garden Court).

I have never really known how future trainee solicitors/ pupils should answer questions at job assessments so despite being a lawyer I am not sure I am particularly helpful but probably more helpful than for those who know no one in practice - at least I do know the process for solicitors of SQE new exams and that kind of thing.

@Xenia You see - you know what Garden Court is. So do I - now. Years ago it would have meant nothing. So knowledge is power. You have met barristers, worked with barristers and know some Chambers. Probably instructed barristers. Probably been to barrister summer parties. Of course you know more than the average parent.

Tizer, did you miss Xenia's joke?

Many MNetters have heard of Garden Court. Search this site for Allison Bailey.

My point remains that ordinary folk don’t. Who on earth thinks the world and his wife get advice on this forum for this career? MN is sadly in its own bubble. Garden Court joke? Was it one?

I think sour grapes from the one who didn’t get pupillage. But looks are a factor to success at the bar I think - shouldn’t be- but this is a role where each persons success benefits chambers, where each person is selling themselves for instructions from solicitors via their clerks - and if you don’t think that in some sets clerks are happier to be able to sell a personable and charming (read:handsome) bloke or attractive woman, you’d be wrong.
something like 40% of oxbridge degrees are 1sts, they are 2 a penny at the bar these days unlike in the past, and pupillage at a good set in an interesting and lucrative area at the bar is incredibly competitive. Everything matters.

Yes tizer garden court has a certain meaning for those in the know. Although I have some very very good friends either still there/now on the bench from there.

I mentor a whole clutch of baby and not so baby barristers and I have to say they are all gorgeous, dammit. Never really thought about it before! But also stars or potential stars - v young B panel etc

@Delphigirl Thats the sort of “In the know” I’m talking about. It’s one upmanship and somewhat distasteful but restricted to some applicants and not others. How would @Karengardens DD know anything? Although of course there are umpteen more to apply to.

I do think it is up to potential pupils to educate themselves on the details of different chambers, areas of law etc. Tizer. If they can’t do that they don’t deserve pupillage, seriously. Goodness knows it is very easy these days, there is stacks of info on the internet. It is not like 30 years ago where parental info was such a huge advantage. What I would say to female pupils in particular is to stick to your guns in respect of your real interests, and don’t let yourself be pushed to lesser paid serious sex crime or public law family work just because those as seen as “good for girls”.

@Delphigirl Plenty of men do poorly paid criminal work. Within many areas of law people see themselves as doing some good snd something vital for society. Others just want the money! It takes all sorts. It also takes a bit of knowledge to work out what your competencies are and what would suit best.

I agree with research about areas of law and Chambers, eg Oxbridge only ones, but inside info about Chambers isn’t obvious unless you really delve deep.

I didn’t say that men don’t do crime. I said that there are some areas that women are pushed into, and they should stand firm if that is not actually what they want to do. Inside info about chambers is very easy to obtain, just click on legal cheek for starters. I don’t know why you are trying to argue with me about this. You are trying to teach your grandmother to suck eggs I’m afraid.

I am sure having a parent who is in a professional job is always helpful even if I just give the advice everyone says is out of date and am then ignored - one son reminds me of his Teams interview wearing suit and tie when his interviewers (in-house, film company) were in hoodies.

It certainly can help if you look smart in general. One of my sons before university took roaccutane for acne and got NHS braces as he wanted to go to university looking good. It probably pays when applying for jobs to try not to be over weight but that is easier said than done.

Once AI gets better we could do a query in about 2 seconds which would look at the photos on every barrister's chambers in London for people under 30 and tell us roughly their looks/weight and academics and could probably produce us a composite photo of the typical barrister under 30 earning a particular sum a year.

@Delphigirl Just a conversation! I basically agree with you.

Well exactly Xenia. I’ve held back so far on suggesting that a quick glance at female juniors of one to ten years call on chambers’ websites puts this silly argument to rest, because it seemed a bit mean.