4th a'level for medicine

[autumn666]

Hi, my DS is in year 12 and planning on applying for medicine. I have posted before about his struggles with workload doing 4 A levels and he has finally decided to drop further maths to focus on his ucat and work experience.

However, his sixth form is telling him he should be aiming for 4 and generally being unsupportive, although everything I have read suggests that everything else carries more weight than a fourth A level.

He volunteers twice a week and in the holidays, has a part time job and reads around the subject of medicine daily and something needs to give as he's getting quite stressed.

Is there anyone who can advise as to whether it is the right decision, as he is now doubting himself, thank you.

4 A levels will not help you at all. You need 3. They'll only look at 3.

That makes sense, I was just so surprised when chatting to a mum who was adamant that her son needed no work experience at all - just good grades. He did get accepted, and is doing well. So I wondered if I'd been misinformed about work experience.

@AmaryllisChorus he must have done something as he'd be asked for examples of when he's shown certain skills. But some Unis need more than others.

Many medical schools do not require work experience as it is not always possible, particularly for those from disadvantaged backgrounds to organise. Instead any volunteering or work as another poster said, could be at least as valuable experience.

could you let me have your list of 15 Unis that don't require chemistry. I only found 9 !

Anglia Ruskin
Bangor
Brunel
East Anglia
Keele
Kent & Medway
Lancaster
Leicester
Manchester
Newcastle
Plymouth
QMUL
Sheffield
Southampton
Sunderland

According to the Medical Schools Council entry requirements page.

@NoNotHimTheOtherOne thank you. Few new ones on there ! Just be aware those who are needing this that most will still need Biology and another science (this can be psychology in some cases but not all).

Except Newcastle. They only need 3 A levels.

@AmaryllisChorus he does St John ambulance cadets, helps at a youth club for teenagers with special needs every week and has a part time job as a waiter in a local pub. He does extra volunteering in the holidays at a holiday club for disabled kids and a group for dementia sufferers and their carers. Also completing online clinical work experience.

Wow! He does a lot of volunteering, which is great! They only need a day or 2 of work experience just to get a sense of whether it’s the right job for them. My dd did some hospital work experience but found one day in a GP practice much more valuable and gave her lots of experiences to talk about in her interviews.

Totally agree that it’s a marathon and not a sprint and doing a 4th A level not needed. My dd did do an EPQ (health related) and again this was a great conversation point in the MMIs. It was a very busy and exhausting first term of Year 13 though (we hadn’t looked at many med schools before the UCAT, which she only sat mid September, so had to dash around the country)!

Really important to stress that whatever he does, he is able to reflect on it and apply his skills etc to being a doctor. As others have said the interview process is brutal and can be spread out over several months for some. We tried to steer dd away from medicine but she is determined that it is the career for her and so we are her support team now. Best of luck to your son (and you, of course)! 😊

Hi, OP -

I am a former admissions tutor in a very strong programme, but in STEM rather than Medicine. I hesitated to reply in case Medicine is different but am now confident that it is not.

Four A Levels backfires if your grades suffer. This is a general principle and Medicine seems no different. Your DS is doing an enormous amount of work. More credit to him, but I see no realistic way he can think about picking up a fourth without risking his future and I think it is inappropriate of the school to mention this to him. If he fulfils his current commitments to a high standard then even with the competition for medical places he should do well

I will add a slightly divergent view. DD took five and appears to have had no regrets. She managed a senior leadership position at school, school sports captain of the main girls sport, country training in one sport and representing south of England in an independent schools competition in another, volunteering one evening an week, and more. (The school actually said she would have been easier to place at a good US University, as they like breath.) She even went on the school ski trip the Easter before her exams.

She coped partly because she grasps concepts quickly and STEM is an awful lot easier if you have aptitude. She also learned to really concentrate in class, which coupled with a good memory and a lack of perfectionism, meant her learning was pretty efficient. She has quite a lot of stamina, which is a good thing for a doctor.

Advantages were:

• she was used to managing a big workload, and had good study techniques before she got to University.
• she came down with a 24 hour bug before one paper, but could relax as it did not matter. (She dropped from A* to A.)
• learning never goes amiss, and her extras (physics and electronics) helped her get onto a competitive engineering intercalation and were very useful once she started.
• she kept options open. Certainly one other (all the science students took four) in her year decided late on that medicine was not for them and was able to get a Cambridge NatSci place, whilst DD hummed and harred between medicine and engineering for quite a while.

That said taking more than three was of no advantage when it came to getting a place - it might have been had she taken BMAT, which was more sciencey, and when she started she was about the only one with more than three. Her grades were fine, so that was never a factor. Electronics was great as it helped develop more practical skills, so was a good contrast to the more academic subjects.

There are some intercalations, such as epidemiology, where double maths is a great help. It slightly depends on whether a DC has a potential interest in academic medicine.

@Needmoresleep but A levels have changed since ours sat them. Much more content and linear and exams are more rigorous. Not to belittle what your DD did as 5 is a huge achievement, but even 4 now is a push.

I agree, and the big problem will be the number of exams. However most pupils at her old school still take four, and some take five.

I just wanted to add an alternate view as it works for some. Education is rarely wasted. Equally as a junior doctor DD is finding that the long hours she worked in her gap year as a chalet host and the customer contact, is proving to have been a valuable experience.

I agree that learning never goes amiss. For the minority who can do four A Levels without sacrificing quality, it is a great thing.

@Needmoresleep did your DD do an intercalated degree? Those look fascinating and I have come across several interesting combinations recently. You obviously need the background. Again, however, a minority.

OP’s DS is coming to the end of Y12 and already doing quite a lot. He isn’t in a position to pick up a new (fourth) A level now if he wishes to begin university on the traditional timetable. (Of course a gap year can be a fine thing for a future doctor)

@poetryandwine EPQ ? Really useful for not only Uni skills but for gaining an in depth insight into an area of medicine that interests. And can lower that offer in some Unis.

@Needmoresleep your DD is an amazing young woman. Determination is definitely a fantastic attribute for these foundation years.

Poetryandwine intercalation can be fun. Medical courses have, over the years, become more practical. Early clinical exposure, training on communication skills etc. However more access to the more academic side suits some students. This is built in to the six year degrees (Oxbridge, UCL, Imperial and probably some others) and then some other Universities allow students to take a year out and intercalate. Some insist the intercalation is internal, so worth checking what areas a University specialises in, or external. DD, was already wavered between medicine and engineering and for various reasons decided not to take the BMAT test which would have given her access to the six year courses, deliberately aimed for a medschool that allowed for external intercalation.

She took this course, which was very cool. I don't know if things have changed now, but effectively after a six week pre-sessional they had access to third year engineering options, and the courses DD took were also available to students on the stand alone Masters. On her major project she was the only medic amongst a group of Masters students from Europe, and was initially nervous till she discovered they were delighted to have a medic in their group. They supported her on the technical stuff and she contributed her medical knowledge, just as real world research should be. And the research itself, around the possible application of computer game technology to an area of medical technology was seriously cool.
https://www.intercalate.co.uk/listings/bsc-in-medical-sciences-with-biomedical-engineering/

The course opened doors into medical research, if that route appealed to students. (Or escape routes out of medicine....) DD spent her later 2 month elective in a research lab, and when she finishes her F1/F2 would still have academic options available.

Other options are listed here.
https://www.intercalate.co.uk/

A friends daughter studied at the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine and used that as a platform for a really interesting career in tropical medicine. A vetmed friend of DDs who was aiming for a competitive and niche area, intercalated on a very specialist course in Europe. Double maths at A level will give you access to the more mathematical areas, and like everywhere else, maths is invading medicine.

DD was at a very selective school where four A levels was not seen as either unusual or a particular challenge. I can see some schools encouraging able pupils to keep up four as it does widen options further down the road. But obviously not if it means that grades might be compromised.

Thank you for all the replies and advice, he stuck to his decision and the school has revised his timetable.

I'm a year off being a consultant and not sure I would do it again with hindsight knowing the system now

You don't need to volunteer twice a week. I volunteered an hour a week (love it so still do it 15y later having started for med school applications). They appreciate work experience is nigh on impossible for those without medical relatives and even with incredibly difficult - hence why things like care home volunteering are "worth" more. Think I only did 4d work exp in total and that was hard to get

I did the IB not alevels (harder and not recognised accurately by medical schools unfortunately) but most just do 3 alevels

I'd be looking at alternative careers tbh physician associates are hugely expanding, far less studying, funded training, better pay for less hours for least first 8y compared to a Dr, no antisocial hours

@mumsneedwine I always think an EPQ is a great idea when the pupil is interested in doing one. You are correct that sometimes it results in a lower offer. IMO the skills it teaches, if you take it seriously, are even more important

Fascinating reply, @Needmoresleep and thanks for the link

physician associates are hugely expanding, far less studying, funded training, better pay for less hours for least first 8y compared to a Dr, no antisocial hours

...And, at present, no prospects of career progression. You need to think carefully before going down this path.

I would add that one advantage of graduating from somewhere like Imperial is that you end up on their recruitment database. I appears that there is demand for individuals with both medicine and engineering. Some starting salaries are high.

Only a matter of time. Just need to read a few Dr forums they're regularly being prioritised for training opportunies over drs

That's true, it is not fair as the junior doctors spend a lot of time doing on calls, emergency cover and miss out on training opportunities.
I think a lot of hospitals have employed PAs but there is no clear pathway to progression and a lot of them are very smart, enthusiastic and keen to learn. Not fair on the PAs either! Not a easy situation to resolve.

The BMA guidance has been awesome. Doctors no longer prepared to risk their GMC numbers so refusing to sign on behalf of patients they haven't seen. I'm really hoping this stupid project is now dead in the water. PAs that I've met don't want to be doctors, they want to be their assistants, but the ones I see on social media are deluded. And have killed people because of their arrogance and ignorance. I always ask who someone is now. And I'm v happy with an ANP.

And any consultant prioritising the training of a PA over their juniors should be fined/fired. Who trained them ? Who are the next consultants ? Some senior doctors gave sold out their profession (why, I don't understand).

The amount of time juniors spend on call and emergency cover needs to capped. When they are off doing these things, sometimes nearly 50-60% of their time spent for service provision, training does suffer. PAs don't do any emergency work, at least where I work and not counted as part of team as they can't prescribe or take decisions Independently- so they do have protected time to go and train in what they want, whereas junior doctors are not able to!