Are triple language degrees the norm now?

[Pascale73]

I studied modern languages at university back in the day.
Two languages, both studied from A-Level - I think it was pretty unusual to start any languages from scratch then, unless they were unusual ones not taught in schools and everyone was going to be a beginner.
Friend’s child is studying one language at A level and thinking about degree level. My advice has been sought due to my own experience, but it seems so different now.
Lots of places offering triple mod lang degrees, letting you start 2 of the languages from beginner level.
It seems a lot of work to me! I mean, my degree was a lot of work, and I’d already been studying those languages for 6 years+ when I started.

I was going to advise friend’s Dd either to just take the language she is already studying, and think really carefully about whether to add a maximum of one at beginner level, but am I hopelessly out of touch? I don’t see how you can do more than scratch the surface with doing 3, even if you had studied them all before!

When we went to the Warwick open day for ds, we were shown round by someone doing 1 from A level and two ab initio and they felt you didn't get much time for the language from A level as you have to get the two ab initios up to scratch in such a short time. They split the year abroad so you spent a semester each in the ab initio language and just the summer holidays in the A level language and she felt that didn't get you up to good fluency.

DS is doing one from A level and one ab initio. The ab initio language is the one he really wants to be fluent in at the end so he's working his socks off on that - though has taken two other languages ab initio while on this first semester of his year abroad so you can always pick things up along the way. Two seems to suit him, though occasionally he says he wishes he'd done History plus the ab initio.

I know quite a few students who have done single languages alongside subjects like History or Sociology. The one thing there definitely seems to be is much more choice though - Spanish and Iberian Studies for example.

I think it's worth asking the friend's dd exactly what she wants out of it. Fluency with three might be tougher for some than fluency with two. Or if they are a great linguist, then really easy. Does she ultimately want to teach? In which case three - French, Spanish, German - would be great.

She needs to look at courses herself though, and really see what's out there - with the best will in the world, your experience is a bit too out-of-date.

My niece did one A-Level language and one from scratch. The second semester in year two was in A-Level language country and the year abroad in the from scratch country, by the end of year four each language was a similar level. Lots of her friends added a third language from scratch - usually one from the same family as one they knew already.

It all worked really well and seemed very much the norm.

@vocalfryspeppermintcream You would not get 3 semesters abroad now. I cannot begin to think where the money would come from. Even two semesters is a struggle with Turing being means tested.

@Pascale73 I think there are various forces at play here. Too few schools offer dc more than one MFL at gcse. My DD took two. She was good at MFL. Most schools push students into French or Spanish. So when it comes to A level, one is the norm. My DD took two and continued them to degree. She felt that the ab initio students were still behind at the end of y2. That was at an academic uni. Lots of literature and culture modules. One semester in each MFL country. She was advised by school that joint MFL was better than single and she certainly found that at uni. She never had any need to do more.

I tend to think doing more (3) has dumbed down the degrees . Three with two ab initio was not allowed even 13 years ago at DDs uni. Mainly because the required standard was high! It’s not just about speaking. It requires way more than that. So spreading yourself so thinly I don’t see as beneficial.

Not every MFL grad uses their degree by using their languages. DD doesn’t use hers but an academic course was a great platform to study law and become a barrister. So I would always look beyond acquiring more languages and ask what does the dc actually want after the degree.
For example: at Warwick, I might look at management and MFL if I wanted a business job. Bath have similar degrees. If you want law, two as an academic subject is best. Translation is mostly done by computers and not well paid. So look realisticly at employment but taking three MFL clearly doesn’t do justice to all three. It is definitely a case of more is less! Just fitting in the core for three surely means options are limited? Unless the core is dumbed down of course!

At Durham open day I got the impression it was 2 languages and sometimes one was from scratch. The from scratch could be a language like French that the DC was likely to have GCSE in if not studied from A level or could be something new - spoke to someone who was going Russian, so the study abroad couldn’t be in Russian because of current conflict.

Our DC interested in English and German as a degree, so not quite the same course as Modern Languages

@TizerorFizz

Not sure why you doubt my word!

It was last year.

No Turing money was available- funded by student and parents.

@vocalfryspeppermintcream I assumed it was years ago . It’s expensive to be away for 3 semesters and does mean less work is done for the degree. Lots od parents do find dc don’t get enough Turing money as it’s means tested. I assume you know this so more time abroad depends on parents to a much greater extent. I think it’s looking at language over the deeper understanding a MFL should foster. It clearly leans towards less literature etc which is considered difficult, and more speaking. This isn’t necessarily the best prep for many jobs.

I saw three on offer ten years ago but all three were Romance languages.

It might be worth speaking to the Joint Honours office as it might be that three language degrees are actually joint honours (I was looking at combining ancient and modern languages, which would have been joint honours)

When advising your friend's child OP, it's often easier to start backwards. Do they intend to use their language skills post studies, have they an interest in the cultural, literature, politics, history side of stuff or just want to leverage the degree for the jobs market, etc.

When we were reviewing options 3 years ago, each uni varied so much but there is also flexibility in choosing modules geared towards the individual's wider interests so get them to review each one in detail. Electives, or language suite concentration is also available in most for those wanting to accelerate their 'portfolio' and have spare capacity.

One, two or three, so subjective, in our case one studied to A level, one ab initio with a semester each being spent from this August in language regions for Y3. She may drop her advanced language in Y4 to focus solely on the ab initio one to get that to higher standard, as the first is well advanced already. I personally think, given how stretched mine is with her timetable, 3 is too much, but I guess it depends on the individual, their innate skills and their future objectives for use of their UG skills gained. Our European counterparts seem to manage multiple languages very well indeed but value derived from doing 3 in UK is very much down to the student.

The Turing scheme for UK applicants is the kicker, and makes MFL degrees even more unattractive for most than ever before. We consciously chose a programme in a country where DD will benefit from Erasmus and is fortunately able to qualify for EU status so won't hold her back from a future works perspective, but she is aware of how lucky she is vs her UK counterparts currently struggling with the visa and qualification process in their respective unis right now.

If you are EU, you are not the standard UK student. Except I assume your DD was already fluent in another language.

From any reasonable perspective, three means short cuts are taken. Turing really is a big issue due to means testing. Two semesters with two MFLs is best for most. It’s best to do 2 MFLs at A level but many schools let linguists down. It’s hard to get top A level grades due to native speakers and unis don’t care and they get the top degrees too. It makes MFL less attractive.

Totally agree with working backwards from career choice.

True Tizer, not standard. Born and educated in UK, but able to dual UK/IRE passport due to ancestry. Language skills all non native though.

Yes it's harder to get top grades, but not impossible. She was one of the lucky ones where teachers preferred to support those with potential vs native, but this I agree, was the exception due to it offering a wide language provision with high take up (at A level at least). Very few went on to apply for MFL UG, which supports your point on attractiveness.

Having raised bilingual children myself I cannot see how learning 2 or 3 languages from scratch at age 18 is going to get you anywhere near fluency?! It's just not possible at that age. Languages should be taught at nursery and primary school imo.

So unless you absolutely love learning these languages I'd study something else personally.

Our European counterparts seem to manage multiple languages very well indeed but value derived from doing 3 in UK is very much down to the student.

Because languages in most other European countries are taught from nursery age - at that age children absorb new languages MUCH easier.

I also cannot see the point in this? Doing three languages at uni, two from scratch just sounds like someone who doesn’t know what they want to study.

We are a bilingual household, living in Europe. But it takes time to be fluent in two languages, let alone 3-4

I think that's why posters on here are all suggesting one ab initio only to maximise some proficiency, with at least one other to A level standard if undertaking a straight MFL programme.

We're lucky in UK if languages in addition to french/spanish are introduced from Y7, and then due to option blocks many can only take one.

My ex European colleagues (Belgian, Maltese, Swiss as the VERY multi lingual able) would say their proficiency was more down to the attitudes to teaching received vs just starting early. That included the rigour of their english learning. Their opinion, I wouldn't know!

I think you have put your finger on it Caspianberg, she doesn’t really know what she wants to study. I think the career plan is more “live and work abroad”, (which I have also done myself, though back in the UK now.)
She does French at A Level, and is in Y12 at the moment, so has time to decide.
She was initially really drawn to Asian languages, she was talking about French and Thai or Chinese. I suggested she try them on Duolingo, and I think she found them quite tricky, so then was focussed a bit more on European languages.
I think she and her mum both worry that if she “only” does one or two languages and others do three it will look like her degree was easier. Relieved others also think 3 might be too much.

I would do a degree in something different and then an official language proficiency qualification on the side.

@Pascale73 It’s completely the opposite! Two is more academic.More is less in depth for obvious reasons. As I have pointed out, it’s more in depth study which sets up dc for better jobs. The skills learnt are far more than speaking a language.

These days, translation is often done by computer programs. Travelling is not a job but what would she do abroad? Work in a restaurant? It’s a bit aimless to be honest. Presumably in Thailand.

Where teaches Thai? Hardly anywhere I imagine. If she does French then choose another language with Latin roots. Italian is often done ab initio. Mandarin has zillions of speakers worldwide and is clearly difficult. What would be the purpose of Mandarin? To travel to China? A friends DS teaches English there and learnt Mandarin as he went along. Didn’t do it here. I think she needs to look at the breadth a good MFL degree covers and look at whether another subject would be good with it. What other A levels is she doing?

Leeds uni. CUG only course!

I bet it’s full of native speakers. Chinese and Thai.

You can do French and Thai at Leeds or at SOAS-UCL joint.

She definitely lives French and wants to do a degree in it.

I did suggest Italian! And suggested French-Spanish-Italian was too much, and you’d be competing with all the people with ALevel.
But so many “good” unis offering 3, I started to doubt myself.

I’m not completely sure what the other A levels are. I’m fairly sure psychology is one, but it might have been sociology. Maybe geography is the other.

@Pascale73 My DD did two. Both equal. I think now it would be. MFL degree but many unis now offer three within that overarching degree. There’s simply little value in doing more than two unless you are a native speaker in one. The degrees are self explanatory on the web sites.

It’s all very well posters saying we need exposure to languages earlier but which ones and we don’t have the teachers. We cannot make up our minds if we want French or Spanish and then lots of DC want something else later. Many dc and parents would happily do none at all! I would have loved DD to have had MFL at primary and we had no idea she would be good at it - other than she could mimic accents. She was so lucky to be able to take French from y7 and add Italian at y8.

DD found lots could already speak the MFLs at uni so anyone doing ab initio really does have to work at it. There are students with parents from the country in question and have spent every holiday there. They know these countries. A school friend of DD was coached by her teacher parent in the mums native language and got to Oxford. My DD got a place at Oxford with none of that. None.

Also DC need to know that uni study is not just about being proficient at the MFL. DD read books, poetry, studied art and politics, and even medieval French poetry - then you write essays. You have to do far more than just doing a bit of Duolingo at a higher level. So many people don’t understand the better MFL degrees are research based not purely language acquisition based. Most ab initio do catch up when they are abroad but spread yourself too thinly and other desirable skills are not honed as much.

I would suggest French and Italian makes sense. French and German or French and Spanish. DD thoroughly enjoyed her degree but doesn’t use a word of it now for work, only on holiday where it’s useful for getting a good table in restaurants. All her other skills for work were improved on her degree.

As far as I can see, Oxford still restricts to two MFLs. From what I can see, Cambridge is the same.

My DD started a MFL degree in September. Two languages - French & Italian - equally weighted - one is ab initio though they are expected to be reading novels in their ab initio language by the end off the first term.

At DD's uni lots do two languages, some a single language and other language plus another subject such as History, English, Linguistics etc. None are allowed to take 3 as part of their degree.

DD did French and Spanish A levels so is now trying to keep up her Spanish by doing a weekly class at the uni languages centre but its not assessed. She says it's quite hard juggling the three but is enjoying the mental gymnastics.

I'd have thought one ab initio language is very possible but v hard to do two fro scratch and reach any decent standard. All depends what your friend's DD is looking for.

Good luck to them - my DD loves her course. Lots of contact time and native speaker tutors.

If she wants to live and work abroad, Spanish or Portuguese would open doors. Spanish/ Portuguese plus Chinese would set her up well for travel purposes, but I don't think there are jobs purely related to languages that offer career prospects.

I'd advise her to do a degree like economics or law plus a language, business plus a language, comp sci plus a language or linguistics, a language plus international studies or development studies or political science.

Grads with a language work in all sorts of areas besides teaching and translation. International banking, communications in international organisations, foreign office or armed forces, etc. If you follow a language degree with a masters in finance or public health or MBA you would increase your employability. A masters in law ditto.

The utility of a language degree is closely tied to the degree of fluency in the languages. I'd throw a huge and very sodden wet blanket over the idea of three. Even two would be more limiting than useful without a postgrad degree.