Are triple language degrees the norm now?

[Pascale73]

I studied modern languages at university back in the day.
Two languages, both studied from A-Level - I think it was pretty unusual to start any languages from scratch then, unless they were unusual ones not taught in schools and everyone was going to be a beginner.
Friend’s child is studying one language at A level and thinking about degree level. My advice has been sought due to my own experience, but it seems so different now.
Lots of places offering triple mod lang degrees, letting you start 2 of the languages from beginner level.
It seems a lot of work to me! I mean, my degree was a lot of work, and I’d already been studying those languages for 6 years+ when I started.

I was going to advise friend’s Dd either to just take the language she is already studying, and think really carefully about whether to add a maximum of one at beginner level, but am I hopelessly out of touch? I don’t see how you can do more than scratch the surface with doing 3, even if you had studied them all before!

I did a degree in 3 languages many moons ago, I don't think it's a new thing. Mine was a single honours BA in Modern Languages. At least 2 of the other universities I applied to offered 3 languages.

I did 2 A-level languages and one ab initio. I did the ab initio language and one a-level language as major languages, 80% of my degree, and my year abroad was split between them. I didn't spend any time in the country of the minor language. By the end of the second year I felt I wasn't very good at all at my ab initio language, and I really needed my time abroad and a lot of hard work to get me to a good level.

I honestly don't know how I'd have managed if I'd had 2 languages I was trying to learn from scratch. It takes a lot of hard work to learn one language form scratch, to degree level, in 4 years. For me, trying to do 2 would have resulted in one of the 3 languages being neglected.

@Pinkylavenders I disagree. If you grow up knowing more than one language and/or you have a natural affinity (which I guess many taking MFL do), then you can become fluent after 18. My roommate in college (in France) spoke fluent English at 20, which she started learning at 18. She had only a very slight accent too. She grew up knowing Greek (her home country) and French. She learned Italian and Spanish in her childhood and teens. It was only when she moved to New York for a year that she bothered learning English - picking it up by immersion rather than schooling.

You can achieve fluency in the semesters abroad. Do you really think top unis like Oxbridge and others don’t expect this? They really do.

Neither do you need to do law and a MFL. You can convert to law afterwards. As DD did. It means the degree plays to your strengths. You can take a MLaw after conversion. I don’t know anyone who’s done it after a MFL degree and plenty don’t need it because a lot of them are commercial. Not criminal, family or other aspects of law. So very much depends on career aspirations.

I did 3 languages post A-level at Durham in the 90s, it was BA Hons MFL with the languages taken at final year listed on the degree cert. I took all 3 through to final year and went to 3 countries on my year abroad using the 2 sets of holidays either side making it 15 months away in total. I also did 3 languages at my secondary school which was a local comp and this was normal for top sets.

Most others on my course at Durham had 2 languages post A-level and picked up 1 ab-initio. They did the 3rd language for 2 years and dropped it for the year abroad and final year. Some did do just one language as a stand alone, but most doing just one were joint hons with a non related subject such as law or economics. There were the odd exceptions. The uni were not keen on 3 at final year and the only other person I know who did it, also had 3 at A-level. Nobody did 3 if one had been ab-initio. You really had to fight for it and be good enough. As for scratching the surface, it depends on the course and the modules on offer. Durham was very literature heavy and I don't feel I missed out by not doing 3 literature modules in the same language every year.

I remember when looking for unis there were only 14 that offered 3 languages, but only 3-4 could facilitate my circumstances of 3 post A-level as it wasn't the norm. I had asked in the first year if I could do my 3 and pick up a 4th ab-initio, but they wouldn't allow it. When I went to the open day at Hull, they were happy for me to do my 3 plus 2 others ab-initio.

I think a very motivated student with a talent for languages could cope with 2 ab-initio, but I wonder how many keep all 3 to final year. It's possible if you're good and willing to put the work in.

Doing masters in law after conversion means a lot of years slogging away and the language element of the degree wouldn't necessarily end up being useful unless you did it abroad - im thinking specifically of the US.

Law at undergrad level can take you into more areas than the practice of law per se. Law plus a language could open doors in banking or international finance, corporate compliance, international insurance, civil service, armed services, or the foreign service. Add a CPA qualification and even more doors would open.

It's easier now if you really want to become fluent, YouTube, TikTok, you can be exposed to another language all day now, which wasn't possible in my day. Still you would have to be quite hard working and in my opinion have a flair for languages

DD has 1 MFL A level (but studied 2 at GCSE). She didn't know what to do for a living either so went for the 2 languages at degree level (one ab initio but as she had already done GCSE she thought it would give her a good start). Interestingly she thinks she's the best linguist in both which surprised her as she's far from fluent.

Her course includes cultural modules so she also practices essay writing/analysis etc which are probably similar skills to other humanities degrees. I think it would be difficult learning 3 languages plus the cultural elements as well. If your DD just wants to focus on language acquisition only then 3 might be doable.

In terms of work, dh and I both work where we live. Although we use the local language in our day to day lives with friends and out and about, we don’t use the local language really at all in work.

Dh especially doesn’t use it at all (tech), they use English. He often ends up in solely French/ Norwegian/ German/ Japanese companies, and they all use English in Tech

@mathanxiety DD has MFL friends doing many of those jobs. They definitely don’t all go to law grads. Many organisations want bright DC with different degrees.

@AnotherMFLMum I don’t think any degree should just be about language acquisition. It’s a skill but not a broad set of skills. You are absolutely correct that writing essays is important and doing the required reading and research is a vital skill for work in my opinion.

Degrees that require a deeper understanding of literature are more challenging degrees. There is no doubt about that and universities require students to have deeper skills to do well in those core modules. Other unis allow students to swerve literature which makes the degree somewhat easier - a degree in English wouldn’t allow this.

Doing two MFL A levels is difficult in lots of schools as dc do one MFL GCSE. They are not offered any more. Back in the 90s I’ve no doubt MFLs were valued, but they are not now. Doing three at A level isn’t the greatest prep for a MFL degree because essay writing is missing. Doing English, History, Politics is better. DD had a few with three MFL A levels on her course and they had to go to the essay writing classes to improve their skills to the required level. I’m definitely in the camp of do two MFLs if you can plus an essay subject.

Interesting that those who studied in the past tend to think like me, that three with two from beginner would be too much, but those studying now tend to think it is more manageable. There must have been some sort of shift, and I wonder if it is related to their being a lot more resources available now to help with language learning. Or is it just that it is so rare to do more than one language at school, universities have to try and level the playing field later.

Anyway, I think I will reinforce my earlier advice to friends daughter: keep French, maybe add another Romance language from beginner, perhaps Italian or Portuguese (actually think she might really go for Portuguese, that’s a good suggestion).

I don’t know if joint honours with another subject is something she might consider. I suppose linguistics or international relations would fit with her other A Levels, but I get the feeling she is after something a bit more unusual or exciting-sounding. But maybe she will start thinking more practically about career paths once she has got over the first excitement of what is on offer. Even I think spending a year studying in Thailand sounds pretty exciting, so it probably sounds very exotic to a 16 year old in comparison to something sensible like law or business studies or management.
Obviously I think a straight MFL degree is a brilliant thing to do. My year abroad was the absolute making of me, even though I don’t directly use my languages for work now. I wouldn’t change a thing about my own experience.

Anyway, I’ll be seeing her over half term so will see what she thinks.

@Pascale I’m unclear why you think language learning is wholly what these degrees are about. The highest quality degrees are not solely that so what about alL the literature, culture and history modules that normally are part of the degree? Either they are far fewer or students just do translation. I cannot see how three can be in the same depth especially with another semester abroad.

I would also talk to her about costs. She might also need to consider this. Pp above said 15 months abroad for 3. That’s going to be very expensive with Turing being means tested. I think it’s fairly clear that, as the two best unis don’t offer 3, ones that do expect less per MFL. Lots of people are also saying they are already fluent in two languages. As we get more and more international students, that’s inevitably the case. So ab initio for them might only be one MFL, not 2. You are right to suggest one ab initio.

Also think a bit more about the year abroad. Few can get work visas now. Portuguese opens up Brazil but in Europe it’s now teaching or going to a uni. No idea about Brazil but I would check it out. DD enjoyed history of art whilst in Italy. So consider what interests she might wish to follow whilst abroad and also think about travel whilst abroad.

I started off doing three, years ago, one an initio. It sounded good but at the end of year 1 I switched back to my two A Level subjects as it made the course more interesting not to be so language focussed. I sort of wish I’d chosen one actually then I’d have had one year abroad set of logistics to navigate and I’d have been there longer so would have become more fluent.

I think it’s overrated.

Ab! That was spellcheck not bad Latin 😉

Tizer, language learning wasn’t what my modern languages degree was about at all. It was mainly literature. Getting fluent was certainly required, and examined at the end, but definitely spoken fluency was left up to us to a great extent - we were expected to be fluent after our year abroad. We did have written translation classes, but they were also based around translating literature. I distinctly remember puzzling over translating poems by Shelley into another language.

It looks like now language learning is the main focus, and I was wondering if that was what had changed. But I think three languages is still a bad idea, and lack depth! Hence this thread.

@Pascale73 Oh yes. I agree. I’ve seen many on MN who want MFL degrees with no literature. I think some unis provide this. However it’s less useful than an academic MFL degree in many ways. Who really needs translation at work now? It seems like a degree for going on holiday.

However aren’t we in the position that many degrees are less challenging than they were? Look at all those firsts awarded!

MFL requires a lot of skills to do well in my view. Thats the best thing about them. So removing key skills doesn’t serve students well.

Tizer, it does seem like there is an obvious difference between a more traditional academic MFL degree and something more vocational.
I think there is a place for offering both types, I am all for choice. But perhaps some universities are not that clear whether they are trying to be vocational or traditional, and I don’t think trying to be both at once is helpful to anyone!
Perhaps my friend’s Dd would prefer vocational, but I feel strongly that traditional is likely to keep more options open. I think traditional is far more interesting too, but would vocational seem more attractive to your average teen? Probably.

I laughed at the “degree for going on holiday”. I completely failed to consider the holiday possibilities and spent the first half of my year abroad freezing in a location known for harsh wintry weather. Then transferred to somewhere with blisteringly hot summers for the second half. Why it didn’t occur to me to plan it the other way round and have a mild winter and comfortable summer instead of spending a year battling the elements, I’ll never know!