Does HE in 2024 really offer social mobility?

[mids2019]

Is the idea that increasing the number of students would increase social mobility a fallcy? It seems to my mind young people now are presented with a plethora of HE/FE choices with an underlying implicit message that university choice does not matter and all professions/roles will be equally achievable despite university attended or the underlying school grades.

I surmise that allowing ex polys to offer a range of degrees was to put often working class children in par with possibly middle class candidates with on average slightly better grades (due to social environment/schooling) when it comes to job applications. However in reality do employers really believe 'all degrees are equal' and are willing to take on applicants with lower education profiles to aid the general notion of social mobility or are they in reality simply just going to the same old universities (in one sense the older the better)

I thought this a good topic as I think my children are being offered little incentive to improve their potential GCSE marks through increased study as they are coming out with the argument 'well you don't have to have great GCSEs or A levels as you will still get into a uni and get a degree and that's all employers want'. To be frank depressingly this seems a reasonable argument......

I think a lot of it is down to the individual school wrt how much support/scaffolding/encouragement they offer.
Both my dc went to a grammar. Ds to an 'old boys' type where they received so much support, teachers were specifically trained in careers, there seemed to be a parents evening on every week for months with info on degrees, which universities, expected salaries after 10 years etc. There was a dedicated Oxbridge 'team' who gave interview help. Some of the 'old boys' who were there came back to do this. My ds got his personal statement back about five times for very minor tweaks, his careers teacher literally went through it with a fine tooth comb.
Dd's school pretty much left it up to the students. No Oxbridge support, no mock interviews, my dd wanted to apply for dentistry and they said perhaps optometry was better (she got 3 A* and an A at A level). Her rubbish 'careers' teacher just wrote BRILLIANT! on her first draft of personal statement. I knew it wasn't brilliant, and got a friend who has experience in admissions to look at it (who confirmed it really was not brilliant).

mids2019 · Today 05:21

I do feel the average comprehensive is ill prepared to start students' career journeys as they do not have the experience and there is a sense to be comprehensive they shouldn't be aiming resources towards those that aspire highly but focussing on local employment, FE, apprenticeships etc. which the majority of students steer to.

Recent advancements in artificial intelligence will result in many roles disappearing in the coming years particularly in areas such as media, law and finance. Graduate recruitment in these areas in London is now down to half of what it was in 2018 and pay has been declining steadily for many of these positions. University graduates with non-stem degrees are the most adversely affected.

Students emerging from average comprehensives, focussing on local employment and going into apprenticeships might find themselves not so ill-prepared after all. Plumbers and electricians could well find themselves amongst the best paid of their cohorts in ten years' time.

Oh dear. My lovely, crumbling, v high FSM comp is sending 11 to Oxbridge this year. 6 into medicine hopefully, a dentist and a vet, lots doing law and engineering at Russell Groups. And many doing apprenticeships or going to work.
The majority of Comps will do the same. No idea what some people think goes on in normal state schools. Maybe they think comps should just let kids aspire to factory work ? Nope. They can aspire to be whatever they want. For free.

To be fair @mumsneedwine the poster said, your 'average' comprehensive. It sounds like you have amazing comp local to you, crumbling or not. This will be a much coveted school. The local school to me is exactly as the poster described an average comp. to be, Infact they are spot on. The problem is there are not enough comps like yours near everybody.

I don’t think crumbling and high fsm are barriers to anything if schools are good. We need to worry about the poor ones. They do exist. Aiming high should be the ethos everywhere.

I also don’t like to read that students are looking for unis where there are no “poshos”. They don’t want to mix and don’t seem to want to branch out from their background. Those who get the better jobs often don’t feel like this and will mix with anyone and develop a career strategy. Common goals bring students together and more dc should want more and be prepared to branch out. You don’t forget where you came from (lace makers and farm labourers here!) but you don’t have to live your past in the 21st century. It’s sad that so many working people tried their hardest to ensure dc got an education at the best unis and now lots don’t want it because they might meet others they think they won’t like. It holds them back and it’s sad. Not only that, parents actively go along with it!

Agree that students must be motivated themselves to seek out opportunities. I see many who don’t attend courses but have a 15 hour a week job they do go to.

But I think that those with self motivated dc are missing the support that is there such as stable home life, fewer money worries, schools in good areas or ability to afford private education.

Dc1 went to the local secondary. They dId offer support in applying to uni. Got into a good uni and met a few students who did have private education. Both sides found it eye opening comparing the two experiences. They all ended up at same uni / course but those with access to family money could take on unpaid internships in summer or move to London readily after graduation to find decent jobs. There’s a big difference in equality of opportunity.

I don’t think crumbling and high fsm are barriers to anything if schools are good. We need to worry about the poor ones. They do exist. Aiming high should be the ethos everywhere.

Absolutely. Rather than lazy, stereotypical - and inaccurate- statements about ‘comprehensives’, parents and others should be commenting on specific schools, and thinking about what actions would help. Can students attend university / careers fairs elsewhere (nationally, regionally, or in a nearby school)? Can the local or wider community be mobilised to provide speakers or work experience placements? Can groups visit aspirational universities, or have speakers from them? Can alumni help? Equally, are some schools over-egging the university route and should they be encouraging apprenticeships etc? With ever-decreasing budgets, schools may be being forced to choose between careers staff and teaching / SEN staff, and so the more the community can support, the better.

Our comp is pretty average. We have a mixed catchment with several council estates as well as the odd street of stupid wealth. Typical of London. I've worked in several schools and all have offered aspiration to their students. Yes, there are some schools who could do more. But the majority, the average, comp will be offering plenty of aspiration.
Might be harder to comment if yours go private or to grammar. I know the perception some people have of comps - it's very often not the reality.
If need Oxbridge support each college has outreach staff dedicated to each area. They are amazing. Google will tell you your college and how to reach them.
Other competitive Unis and courses offer similar support.

@mumsneedwine You have not factored in that London sends more dc to uni than other areas and has some of the best state schools in the country for Oxbridge entry. As your stats suggest. Many grammars don’t get so many to Oxbridge. I also think you need to be aware that a poor school won’t have seen anyone go to Oxbridge. These schools would rarely see a dc who should go but they have no history of helping anyone achieve that. London has a much higher proportion of immigrants who value education and although they might not earn a lot, they totally support education and are fully signed up to dc getting on. Plus the results of doing well are all around them. As you say, London dc see stupid wealth. Dc in former mining villages don’t.

I have found the perception of many about private schools to be utterly wrong too. Looking at the pushy “in the know” parents at our local grammars, the private parents are positively horizontal. I would bet a lot of money that interviewers cannot tell the difference between the RAF officer’s dc at private school and the private surgeon’s dc at a grammar!

@TizerorFizz I agree. But I've also worked in rural Wiltshire, Devon and Essex. Same at all these schools. V few wanted to go to local Unis. They couldn't wait to have a change and explore the world. I think most 18 year olds are similar, regardless of wealth or background. The ones I've taught might just be a bit more determined at 18 as education is their way out of poverty.

And things have changed in the last few years with Oxbridge. Because of their fabulous outreach programmes. Lots of kids who'd never have dreamed of going are now seeing they can. And they are bright kids !

@mumsneedwine Yes I do agree. Are the former mining and textile towns having the same success? I don’t think so. Essex and Devon are not the same.

Many minority ethnic families prefer their children to stay local. It’s quite hard to challenge this. Not that I don’t try.

Students from lower income households are also loathe to take on additional debt and tend to opt for local unis. Especially as there’s an RG and 3 others local.

It’s multi faceted. Yes outreach helps get Uni on the radar for some students. Contextual offers too acknowledging on distance travelled to achieve those grades in particular circumstances.

Imo it should start earlier (careers/ aspirations). But it’s certainly not a level field yet. There’s a long way to go. And in many ways that’s why I believe it’s a generational impact.

@TizerorFizz I worked in the poorest town in Essex - it is a shit hole. No jobs. But we gave those kids hope and lots made it out.

And Devon has some of the highest areas of deprivation in the country. I'd love to work in Yorkshire - that's the retirement plan.

Not that much former mining in Yorkshire! There are crap towns in many counties but not quite as many as others have!

@Rummikub I do think staying at home for uni and work can limit aspiration but it’s cultural for some and a comfort blanket for others. Many in London stay at home for uni but there’s a decent choice there. Some areas have little choice (1 RG and 3 others is rare I think) and many have one uni which might not be the best choice. However if dc want to do well, they can but some areas do have a high percentage of grads in non grad jobs. Lincolnshire tops that league table.

Yes it can do. Esp as the RG is quite strict on entrance requirements. I do encourage them by suggesting other unis not too far away with more accessible entry reqs and some will consider it but family pressure for others is too much. I do also offer to speak to parents if students are agreeable.

Then again I moved city for uni, lost my home town friends. Whereas those that stayed in their home town for uni have a great network. Pros and cons to everything.

We’re not a low income family. It’s the cost of university that keeps students at home. That more than anything else.

I’m sure that’s true too. Curious though would you convince your child to stay local or make it clear there’s no xtra money?

Students forget that stay at home students get less maintenance loan.

Or don’t realise

@TizerorFizz 😂😂 I think you'll find there were 56 collieries in Yorkshire. Barnsley, Doncaster,Wakefield areas had loads. Maybe not in the posh parts though 😊.

It's the squeezed middle who have it toughest. The very poor are eligible for bursaries which can be quite substantial (free accommodation, £10,000 cash etc). But if you're just over the threshold then it's hard. My DD has had the heating on for 2 hours a day the last 2 winters. They've had to break the ice in the toilet some mornings. This is 2024 England. We need something to change.

I don’t know. It’s hall fees that are the killer.

Not a choice for all courses. Vet med only offered at 10 Unis, and you are lucky to get one offer. So staying home not really an option. Same for medicine as again you get an offer if you're lucky. Many other competitive courses are the same. Part time work is necessary for many, just to buy food.

Oxbridge are the cheapest to study at - why lots of ours choose to apply there !

Which uni offers free accommodation and £10k bursary?

Do you mean the bursary is spread over the the three years? Dc1 got that but it was a couple of thousand in each year. No reduction on accommodation.

The private halls are ridiculously expensive.