Does HE in 2024 really offer social mobility?

[mids2019]

Is the idea that increasing the number of students would increase social mobility a fallcy? It seems to my mind young people now are presented with a plethora of HE/FE choices with an underlying implicit message that university choice does not matter and all professions/roles will be equally achievable despite university attended or the underlying school grades.

I surmise that allowing ex polys to offer a range of degrees was to put often working class children in par with possibly middle class candidates with on average slightly better grades (due to social environment/schooling) when it comes to job applications. However in reality do employers really believe 'all degrees are equal' and are willing to take on applicants with lower education profiles to aid the general notion of social mobility or are they in reality simply just going to the same old universities (in one sense the older the better)

I thought this a good topic as I think my children are being offered little incentive to improve their potential GCSE marks through increased study as they are coming out with the argument 'well you don't have to have great GCSEs or A levels as you will still get into a uni and get a degree and that's all employers want'. To be frank depressingly this seems a reasonable argument......

@mids2019 there has been a lot of medical school commitment in recent years to widening participation with contextual offers, pathways etc. It is widely recognised that the profession is enriched by a diversity. They all have different criteria for selection too which can help with building more diversity into the process e.g. one medical school might only choose to interview candidates with ten 9's at GCSE but another might put a lot more emphasis on practical hands on volunteering or caring experience so a young carer would be in a stronger position in that scenario. Even the ones who have the very high grades bar generally make adjustments for contextualisation. Currently the profile is approx 28% independent/72% state educated DC in med schools and the % of DC in independent schools at sixth form is 20%.

I remember having a 1 to 1 with one of my (STEM) students and asking her what her plans were for future employment. She responded that the hadn’t really got any and was hoping to marry a rich man. I laughed thinking that she was joking, but she wasn’t.

@mids2019 there is this https://www.hepi.ac.uk/2023/10/19/2023-english-social-mobility-index/

although tbh not sure it provides any real answer to the question you pose.

I think the expansion of polys and HE was originally to get more of the UK up to standard for a global market, rather to enable social movement for individuals.
As has been said already the best of the Uni's offer "pointless" courses, its not just Surf Science at Plymouth. The argument at top Unis is its about broadening thinking and transferable learning skills so I have no idea why that's also not the seen as for all degrees.

One of the interesting stats I saw on here was the private/ state choice of degree. Computing degrees had substantially more upstate from the state sector despite clearly being a growth job market that would appear fairly lucrative. I'm guessing part of that is that private school kids just aren't able to spend hours in their rooms coding and whatnot and are encouraged out doing sport, art and music (aside from the truly geeky). I wonder if new career paths might make more difference than the few years of higher education.

Haven't rtft but just wanted to say that a lot of employers won't even consider a job application nowadays unless you have a degree.
Not having a degree can create a glass ceiling for promotion particularly in any office based job.
Unfair perhaps but true in my experience.
I do agree that doing a degree that leads to a well.paid profession is best however you do need to be interested in it.

Haven't rtft but just wanted to say that a lot of employers won't even consider a job application nowadays unless you have a degree.
Again: at the moment!
It was due to lazy HR departments using a degree as a first-sift against the multitude of applicants. If we end up with half the population having degrees then it's not such a special marker any more and they will have to find different ways of sorting (such as looking at additional detail e.g. GCSE and A Level grades, OP!)

@senua

Good point but if employers start looking at GCSEs and A levels I am sure that the newer universities will view this as discrimination given that graduates will have a disproportionate number of the lower grades in general. I know a couple of people in newer universities that are vociferous about employers being snobbish about HE institution and one is actually employed to woo employers to take on their graduates.

Your point makes the case that GCSEs and A levels will regain prominence in applications but this may have further impact on the employability of new uni graduates or those undergoing access courses as many won't have the best of grade profiles.

At the minute there seems to be a culture of the degrees the thing and as long as you get that bit of paper with a 2:1 or 1st on then the world is your oyster. I don't think this is sustainable but I do wonder how much this attitude influences teenagers.

LSE, UCL, Imperial, Oxford and Cambridge rank quite highly for social mobility:
https://www.hepi.ac.uk/2023/10/19/2023-english-social-mobility-index/

In contrast, Exeter and Durham perform very poorly.

@mids2019 watch the truth about class. Amol Rajan. Really interesting.

⬆️ Sorry it’s called how to
break into the elite. He talks about how our young people are fed a lie. And i do agree but still believe that HE can support social mobility.

https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2019/jul/29/how-to-break-into-the-elite-review-our-prejudiced-society-in-action

There’s more to social mobility than moving into “the elite”.

Moving from low-skilled, low-wage employment into a professional job that pays above the national average is something that a university degree can facilitate.

Well to answer the original question of course it can dependant upon the subject studied and, to a point, the University attended..
My DD went off to do a M.Eng degree in Chemical Engineering at a RG Uni and with no help from my ex, now divorced, waste of space managed on the maximum loan due to my relatively low income. I helped when I could but it was tough. She is now doing a PhD in ground breaking research and in her first year has already been offered two jobs when she graduates again following conferences she has attended.No interview or questions about GCSE grades, just give us a call. She may stay in academia, it's her choice, but to say that HE does not offer social mobility is dangerous to the hope and aspirations of our young. It can be done and should not be taken away from them. Acceptance that if the loans are not raised it may well be.

@HeddaGarbled

I agree with you. My point earlier in the thread was about how accessible nursing or teaching is. And that creates social mobility and the bigger impact could be for their children.

The programme was interesting to me because of the points raised. My dd went to Warwick uni and yet struggled with finding her place. She had to catch up to the level of private school kids. It was never a fair playing field.
Then after graduation further issues in terms of contacts and access to London jobs/ internships.

She regards herself as privileged though and I’m glad she recognises that. Whereas that seems to be on the radar of private school kids.

I work with post 16s and many rules themselves out of step ups even though they’re capable. Confidence in their ability, lack of resources and family pressures all have a negative impact.

@Rummikub

I hope your daughter is doing well.

It is interesting that going to an older university presumably with good GCSE s and A levels still can lead to challenges you are not from a wealthy background or have had the same educational experiences as your peers.

I wonder to a degree how class perception limits your perceptions to HE and to finding professional jons? My daughter goes to an average comp; not I felt disadvantaged but certainly from a results perspective not equal to grammar and private schools in the region. There is a sense of children there in average being working class with a large number aiming for trades etc. as careers and I think this makes those that want and do achieve 'higher' results stick out.

Ambitions above FE or a a newer university make you an outlier which is fine but the pupil with aspirations of an older university has to be comfortable with this position within a school and peer group. I mentioned peer pressure above and I don't think this can be discounted as a major influence on pupils especially as they move through teenage years and they put more weight on their friends' opinions.

I just don't see that children at my daughter's school have enough contact with professionals and a social or work experience level to act as role models. The children in average aren't that interested in those jobs and employers aren't willing to spend time in schools highlighting their career where there is no interest and in some instances it is unrealistic the pupils could ever qualify for a profession.

Some employers may recruit blind for graduate entry but many don't, so relying on that will immediately limit job opportunities.

People absorb attitudes from the friends around them. Being at a competitive uni, rubbing shoulders with other high flyers can help to set aspirations high - if you see your housemates working hard, applying for internships and good jobs you're more likely to do similar. If your friends are slopey-shouldered, with a "what's the point" attitude, that will rub off too.

Also, looking beyond the first grad job, for job-movers many employers now use employment agencies for at least the first sift and they definitely do not recruit blind!

Yes she’s doing ok thanks. It was a shock to both of us - the continuing disparity.

Warwick like Lancaster are plate glass universities (60s?) and I wonder if the experience would’ve been more noticeable in an older uni. To take full advantage family money is useful.

Both my dc go to the local secondary city school.
I don’t think the school did much in terms of careers. I was the one talking about uni and jobs and skills from an early age. There was a thread awhile ago about how to create social and cultural capital which was interesting if parents have the energy.

I do find this topic problematic. If working class people help their DC to get jobs in the trade or use contacts to get them into the local factory, that's seen as holding them back. But if middle class people encourage their DC to get jobs in their specialism, it's seen as privilege-hogging. It's a bit of a double standard.
And let's not forget the current climate of barristers, teachers/lecturers, NHS, etc striking because they think that they are underpaid and overworked but meanwhile builders, plumbers, etc can pick and choose their work and name their price.
Are 'socially mobile' jobs the default aspiration any more?

Even without money, there are things you can do to help your kids climb the ladder, just by knowing how to navigate the modern job market through your own experience - help them prepare CVs, linkedin profiles, set up job-search alerts for internships, warn them about job scammers, offer to proof-read their applications, buy them a shirt & tie for interviews, offer to check contracts before they sign, etc etc. Just being an extra pair of eyes online for spotting that perfect first job can make a difference. It's a minefield out there, and the more help you can give the better (assuming they'll let you help of course 🙂).

I don’t view it as holding a child back if parents use their contacts to access roles or experience in the trades. I encourage it in my role. My issue is if a child wants something different. I’ve heard some parents say what is he going to do with a degree- especially those who have family run businesses. Other parents who don’t want their child to do games design and would prefer law as they see that as better.

@mids2019 A very interesting topic.

I think there are some issues that need addressing by those who advise dc at some schools. For example, my DN went to a school where teachers openly said all unis were the same. They had gone to a less prestigious one and it had not held them back, I don’t see that as good advice. There is a problem with aiming high for some dc in that they want people like them above all else. They are very wary of others but don’t seem to accept that at all unis, state educated dc are a majority. Who needs to worry about a minority that don’t affect your studies. So seeking out the good enough uni is common.

Work: it seems to me that working for money is important to less well off students whilst they are at uni. The dc with educated parents seem to mostly work out that doing something to forward your career and doing a job is good for the cv. My DN believes money is more important and could not get an environmental science job. No environment work experience at all. Same with DS we know who did politics. No work at all. None. No volunteering and no internships. So why would he get a job? Others just try harder.

We over egg the idea that applications are uni blind. They might be but the elite unis still get more into the higher paying roles. It’s not just about degrees. It’s how you think. Your soft skills and how you apply the skills you have acquired. You need a package and employers do look at A levels. They also set numerous tests and interview so acquiring the skills to do well at these can be achieved by the majority.

I think CS is seen by the computer generation as the way to go. Like many subjects, there will soon be too many grads and getting jobs will become an issue. I think the rounded personalities in many private schools don’t be necessarily want this work.

Sadly we had no contacts for any of our DC. They sorted themselves out. Other dc are fortunate enough to have farms to farm, businesses to inherit etc. Others have to find their own way. @nikkertwist is correct. Keep an eye on your DC but of course you need to be good at all that stuff in the first place and dc needs a cv that actually says something worthwhile. A dc who doesn’t bother has little to recommend them. Plus too many parents seem to think all degrees lead to a good job and it’s just the degree that matters. It is not.

I thoroughly believe this too. Similar happened my nephew. He was a handsome, cheeky, charming lad, the first one to go to a redbrick uni. Swept a very wealthy girl off her feet (in fairness they are madly in love too) married 10 years later & he has a fabulous life, works very hard too.

That's a view solely based on money.

You should also consider whether the degree might lead to an interesting job or a fulfilling one and of course education is valuable in and of itself.

Kate Middleton is an extreme example having met William at St Andrews uni.. Catapulted herself straight to the top of the social pile 🤣

I see your point about events management. However, things change. Surgery used to be carried out by butchers for example. I also know someone who told me she became a solicitor without a law degree -she said she did something called articles.