Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Higher education

Talk to other parents whose children are preparing for university on our Higher Education forum.

Redirected from Oxford and Cambridge 2024

637 replies

MirandaWest · 11/01/2024 15:55

Thought I’d start this thread in case anyone else with a DC who didn’t get an offer from Oxford (or Cambridge in a couple of weeks time) wants to say anything - I feel a bit out of place in the Oxbridge thread now but could be good to have somewhere to talk about how they are and what their plans are now.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
5
Mirrormeback · 31/01/2024 12:55

I'm a bit disillusioned with all this admission's business

I'm a bit meh about something that got me thinking from another thread

Are certain schools predicting higher grades for their pupils to get them into better universities so the school's reputation is upheld as it were

And then if some pupils don't get the A stars required they still keep their place because you know why not we've got this far now

mondaytosunday · 31/01/2024 13:32

@Mirrormeback I'm not sure what you mean by that last sentence. The schools we looked at for sixth form published their A level results and leavers destinations - not where people only got offers from. Saying 'we have X amount of students applying to Oxbridge every year' who cares? If they say 'we have X amount of students who get OFFERS from Oxbridge' that is more relevant, as even if grades inflated the rest of the application must have been very strong too. But still I've only seen Oxford (or Cambridge or wherever) as an actual destination - they have been offered, firmed and made their grades.
And I'm sure I've read somewhere that universities get wise to the schools that tend to over predict over time.

Revengeofthepangolins · 31/01/2024 14:17

Mirrormeback · 31/01/2024 12:55

I'm a bit disillusioned with all this admission's business

I'm a bit meh about something that got me thinking from another thread

Are certain schools predicting higher grades for their pupils to get them into better universities so the school's reputation is upheld as it were

And then if some pupils don't get the A stars required they still keep their place because you know why not we've got this far now

Well, massive over prediction was the source of last year's missed offer debacle but hopefully schools are being more sensible now.

Newgirls · 31/01/2024 15:23

I think mirror means that Oxford would take someone who drops a grade on results day (as they don’t do clearing). No idea if that happens or not.

so a kid who is predicted 3 x A* more likely to get the offer over one with 3 x A. Maybe.

I can’t read that telegraph link and that journalist has a rep for griping. Having said that, I know it’s a very high % of international students at post grad level at Cambridge. I don’t know the undergrad numbers.

Newgirls · 31/01/2024 15:32

I can see how an over prediction could work for a candidate.

two good students. One with 3x A* prediction, one with 3 x A prediction.

offer goes to the one with higher prediction as oxbridge really don’t want too few students. Standard offer is 3 As,

on results day both get 3 x As but the strategy worked

MirandaWest · 31/01/2024 15:38

Realised there were more posts before mine so edited it as mine had been answered by others.

OP posts:
Mirrormeback · 31/01/2024 16:21

@Newgirls @MirandaWest @Revengeofthepangolins

Ok I think you've made me feel a better with Unis getting wise to over predictions

But maybe they don't don't mind if the DC are from schools they may prefer

But I'm definitely wondering about this from

@Newgirls

two good students. One with 3x A* prediction, one with 3 x A prediction.

offer goes to the one with higher prediction as oxbridge really don’t want too few students. Standard offer is 3 As,

on results day both get 3 x As but the strategy worked

Headingto18 · 31/01/2024 17:05

@Mirrormeback some Univs say on their websites that they willl try to take you still if you slip grades eg Reading; others are also very open that they are likely to try to work with slipped grades as they have already selected the young person based on refs, gcses, PS (sometimes) so simpler and less risky to stick with them than go to clearing. Of course its hard to know how many this works out for but seems a slight bump on PGs may well work in favor of those students even if their final grades are lower

Mirrormeback · 31/01/2024 17:15

I know lots of unis do this

But bring an Oxbridge thread

It's more about the interviews and offers for highly sought after places based on so called predicted grades

Mirrormeback · 31/01/2024 17:15

Being

Mirrormeback · 31/01/2024 17:16

Plus the unfairness of getting a place based on lies

WombatChocolate · 31/01/2024 17:21

It all deoends on how competitive the course is. They need to fill their places but not overfill.

Very popular courses at most in-demand places can’t take everyone they have offered to and who have firmed them. They rely on some not meeting their offer and not being able to come. Others know lots of their applicants won’t make the grades and will need to take some of them. They can then choose which - so maybe first those who slipped a grade in a subject that isn’t the degree subject. The uni can be flexible about which to take and which not who have missed offers.

Bear in mind that 80% of predicted grades are wrong. Most of these are over-generous. Universities can’t tell which ones will and won’t achieve their predicted grades. teachers are often surprised too, so it’s not always a case of massive over-predictions by certain places. Of course, if you haven’t been predicted the standard offer grades, you’re unlikely to get an offer. And for some places, having the standard offer grades won’t be enough to get you an offer either as the course is so over-subscribed. So the higher your predicted grades the better really….but there’s no point having offers from places where you’ve no chance of getting those grades. You end up going to your insurance which won’t guarantee accommodation or Clearing which won’t guarantee accommodation. Being realistic about predicted grades and what’s achievable is important instead of just wanting the highest grades possible.

Most colleges and schools over-predict. It might not feel like it if your DC is in Yr12 and th8nking about their coming predicted grades, or has only just applied to UCAS in time for the deadline. But in fact, most students won’t get their predicted grades, meaning over-predictions have happened.

Some people choose to firm an extremely aspirational offer. That’s fine as long as they remember getting those grades is a long shot and they are genuinely willing to go to the insurance place. Others decide they’d rather have the achievable lower offer, because then they can request accommodation etc.

Last year A Level grades went closer to the 2019 levels (still a couple of % above those levels - although for all the protesting and annoyance by students and the press you’d think they’d become much harsher) and it seems the universities had offered expecting higher achievement, so lots did have to take students who missed their offer, in order to fill up. Not the most popular courses at the most popular places though. They might well offer more places this year to reflect what happened and that will make it unlikely to happen on the same scale this year….but who actually knows. And you can’t know if you’ll be the student who turns out to be significantly over-predicted or not until the results come out. Funnily enough, lots of students are sure their predicted grades are far too mean - but then they turn out to have been too generous. Students and parents are not always a good judge of this!

WombatChocolate · 31/01/2024 17:26

Mirror - it’s not lies. Colleges and schools do just what the name suggests - predict. Some reductions are accurate and some are not - most are over-predictions, but schools and colleges can’t know which students will get the higher grades and which won’t as exam performance and work levels vary and are uncertain.

I suppose a key thing to know is that the work done in yr12 (and early yr13 if you’re going to be a late applicant) is all vital and determines those predicted grades. Yr12 passes fast and every piece of work counts so you have to hit the ground running and impress. They will struggle to predict higher if there has been no evidence of performance at the higher level. Different places will use different measures to determine the predicted and set them at different points. Most will include some exams like end of year yr12 exams and other assessed work that most closely resembles exams. They factor in that people often improve a bit but they also predict based on years of experience of seeing students going through A Levels. They don’t set out to be mean in their predictions. Most places are generous, but lots of students are sure their college is mean and everywhere else is being more generous and they are being cheated. It’s not likely.

HappyShoppingBag · 31/01/2024 17:34

Here was the text of the Telegraph article by Allison Pearson from 30 January 2024: "For sale: British university degrees. Top colleges! World-class education in historic surroundings! Knowledge of English is useful but not essential. (Don’t worry, we have poor UK students who can work with you in groups and explain things and lecturers who aren’t allowed to fail you on pain of losing their job. Relax!) Scared of living by yourself abroad? You can bring the family with you. Yes, really. Our special Sunak Flexi-Pass allows relatives to join you and it’s super easy to stay on after you’ve finished your course. A lifetime of generous British benefits can be yours – what’s not to like? Sign up today for the Great British foundation course, you won’t regret it. All major credit cards accepted or please send a large cheque to the vice chancellor, Sir Hugh G Lee Remunerated.

On the morning that I read The Sunday Times exposé about international students buying their way onto prestigious Russell Group degree courses, a friend messaged to say his daughter had been rejected by her first choice and passed to other colleges for consideration, but was not picked by any. Rosie is pretty much the perfect Oxbridge candidate in all but two respects. She’s the kind of sparky girl who would have been cracking codes at Bletchley Park in 1942, a gifted mathematician and linguist who sings and plays two instruments. Exactly the type of brilliant, original and delightful young person our top universities came into being to educate, or so you might think. Female candidates of that calibre in her subject area are unusual, so it was a surprise that Rosie (predicted A star A star A star A star) wasn’t picked from the “pool” which would have allowed a less sought-after college to fish out a student clearly destined for an excellent degree. My friend is sanguine, but really wonders who those colleges chose over his daughter, and why.

Alas, Rosie was burdened by those two clear disadvantages I mentioned. She attends a very good private school and the silly girl also omitted to be Hong Kong Chinese (or another favoured nationality). Even though the Chinese pupils at Rosie’s school are from such fabulously wealthy backgrounds they make Rosie’s middle-class family look like paupers, they still tick a useful “diversity” box for Oxford and Cambridge. Oh, and they’re prepared to pay squillions for the Rolex of higher education.

Discrimination against able British youngsters is now so routine it practically amounts to apartheid. One clever lad I know was offered a daunting A star A star A to study history at Edinburgh. His German classmate was required to get AAB for the same course. Even though the German kid had exactly the same education (and was no brighter), his international status gave him priority over the indigenous teenager.

I will never forget The Telegraph reader, a resident in Switzerland, who told me his son had applied for the same course at the same London university as both a British student and an international student. The “British student” had to get two grades higher than the international applicant.

Undercover reporters found a recruitment officer for Russell Group universities who boasted that “foundation” course pathways to undergraduate courses were much easier than the routes for British applicants because overseas applicants “pay more money… so they give leeway for international students… It’s not something they want to tell you, but it’s the truth”.

It certainly is. For example, to study economics, overseas students needed grades of CCC at Bristol, CCD at Durham, DDE at Exeter and a decidedly unchallenging D at Leeds to be accepted onto a foundation course. By contrast, the A-level grades required from UK applicants were tough – A*AA or AAA. Even if they achieve those grades, the British applicants could still be squeezed out by someone who can pay more. I know a lot of mums and dads who were baffled, infuriated and very sad when their hugely hard-working, high-scoring offspring failed to get a single offer. Now we know why.

The Russell Group estimates that universities in England made an average loss of £2,500 for every “home student” they educated last year. Well, if universities had focused on their core mission (you know, teaching stuff), instead of empire-building with thousands of admin staff and stonking, private-sector salaries for vice-chancellors, then maybe their financial position wouldn’t be so dire. Meanwhile, British “home” kids are betrayed at every turn. Even if their parents can afford it, they are not allowed to offer to pay the international rate for a degree. Why, that would be unfair! It would disadvantage the disadvantaged kids who can’t pay more.

So, instead of filling universities with the cream of our own youth, crucial for future economic growth and prosperity, we import dumbed-down foreign cash cows from competitor nations. Anyone else spot the potential drawback here or is it just me?

Even if your son or daughter is lucky enough to get a place, courses in science, engineering and computing are dominated by East Asian, predominantly Chinese, students who often lack the language skills to engage with the material. I heard of some English-speaking students who flatly refused to participate in “mixed groups”, arguing that the teaching of overseas students was not their responsibility. Bravo, boys and girls! Others suffer in silence with a much-diminished university experience. And don’t get me started on awarding such a huge number of places in medicine and dentistry to foreign students when British applications are so many and so good. Luckily we don’t have a shortage of dentists and doctors, eh?

Our once venerable universities are tarting themselves about like hookers in the cocktail bar of a Knightsbridge hotel at midnight trying to snag a wealthy punter. It’s an obscene and undignified spectacle.

Not, perhaps, the ideal moment, therefore, for Prof Irene Tracey, vice-chancellor of Oxford, to urge alumni to donate to their universities every year. In an interview with The Telegraph, Prof Tracey said graduates should be “giving back” because institutions needed a “vote of confidence” as they were “falling to pieces during a funding crisis”.

Surely, the dear prof is ‘aving a laugh? Universities should be the ones “giving back” to recent students who have accrued over £40,000 of debt and deserve a refund. Many who graduated last year, like my son, had a wretched experience dominated by lecturers’ strikes, lockdown and Zoom tutorials. To cap it all, my boy sweated blood over two 5,000-word papers, only to have them returned with “an average of your scores”. Translation: “Could not be arsed to mark them.” Disgraceful. At least he got his degree. Thousands of young people “graduated” without one because their work hadn’t been graded at all. Universities may act like commercial organisations, but in what other business does the customer pay without getting a product?

The recent fall in international student numbers is to be welcomed, I think. A rotten universities’ funding model, based on encouraging overseas students to buy their way onto highly competitive courses with a handful of paltry qualifications, is both indefensible and unsustainable. Discriminating against our own talented young people is plain wrong. Let’s see some of the worst unis go bust (many are less colleges of education more immigration fast-track) and wean the rest off their addiction to international fees.

Prof Tracey rather gave the game away when she said that one fifth of undergraduates at Oxford are from overseas. That means 20 per cent fewer places for home-grown candidates (it’s an eye-watering 60 per cent at our best science college, Imperial). I don’t think that’s fair. Here’s an irony for you to savour: the top universities have gradually moved to admit far fewer independently educated domestic candidates on the grounds of privilege and elitism. But many of the so-called “overseas” candidates they let in come from those same celebrated schools, and are far, far wealthier than the British kids.

What Prof Tracey and her fellow ivory towerists need to understand is why so many alumni would rather cut off their own ear than set up a direct debit. Scores of my Cambridge contemporaries have already cancelled theirs in disgust. I bet it’s the same story elsewhere. Of course, if you are happy with universities selling your children’s and grandchildren’s places to overseas students; if you’re fine with the cancellation of Western values, the decolonisation of the curriculum (removing much that we treasure) and the hounding of academics who believe in biological sex; if you think “diversity” candidates should always be preferred over majority white children; if you agree that not giving brilliant Rosie a place because she failed to be Hong Kong Chinese or the daughter of a multi-millionaire using wealth not merit to get into Oxbridge, by all means, carry on donating.

But count me out. I stand with the home students. I stand with the best which has been thought and said in this crazy world. I stand with Rosie."

Newgirls · 31/01/2024 17:39

I’d have had more sympathy with that rant if Rosie had been at state school.

Charlemagne38 · 31/01/2024 20:07

@Newgirls Of course… I expect you mean highly selective state schools like QE Barnet, Harris Westminster, Hills Road Cambridge, Winchester Sixth Form, Newstead Wood, St Olave’s etc etc?

tryingtoenergise · 31/01/2024 20:10

I think that rant is awful. Whoever wrote it should look at the actual stats. Offer rates for international students are significantly below those for home students. So it's not easier for them to get in at all. The most favourable offer rates are for UK state school applicants. I think it's grammars, then sixth form colleges, then comps, then independent schools and then FE colleges - in that order with a few % between them. International offer rates are lower. Rosie the code-cracker indeed. Urggh. Ostentatious, misinformed twaddle.

Charlemagne38 · 31/01/2024 20:25

@tryingtoenergise @Newgirls Not entirely misinformed but perhaps it’s time to stop reference to ‘state schools’. There is obviously such a variety and students at those I mentioned above are the most privileged of all - and by accepting so many of them ( understandably) the Oxbridge colleges are able to tick many boxes.

Trylinescore · 31/01/2024 20:51

@Charlemagne38 Winchester Sixth Form? Perhaps you mean Peter Symonds, as there is no Winchester Sixth Form. It certainly isn't highly selective. There are very few schools with sixth forms in Hants. My DC went to a comp where the vast majority don't get their maths & English GCSE. A decent number went onto Symonds studying everything from make up & beauty, drama through to maths, physics and chemistry. I've never heard of anyone not getting an offer as they take over 2000 students each year. The only entry criteria is that you must have a minimum of 5 GCSEs and grade 7 if you want to take A level maths which makes absolute sense. They're quite happy to offer alternative subjects and obviously support GCSE resits too.

Trylinescore · 31/01/2024 20:56

I think 54 out of around 2200 received Oxbridge offers in my DC's year group. It's all relative.

Umbilicate · 31/01/2024 21:03

Allison Pearson is the worst of the worst.

The Sunday Times story fudged the point that these unis are offering for foundation years not for full degree courses

In any case, friend’s dd not getting into Oxford is completely irrelevant - Oxford was not one of the universities mentioned in the story.

Newgirls · 31/01/2024 21:07

Charlemagne38 · 31/01/2024 20:07

@Newgirls Of course… I expect you mean highly selective state schools like QE Barnet, Harris Westminster, Hills Road Cambridge, Winchester Sixth Form, Newstead Wood, St Olave’s etc etc?

yes: non selective state school would be better tho longer to type out!

if a kid/Rosie did that well at a non-selective then I really hope the top unis would offer. But hey mine didn’t 🤷‍♀️

Charlemagne38 · 31/01/2024 21:55

@Trylinescore OK Peter Symonds - trying to save space! I don’t presume that Mumsnet readers necessarily know the names of individual colleges. I don’t imagine that many would recognise the name of my local 6th form college, which is as big as PS and offers a similar range of courses. The difference is that here about 2 generally receive Oxbridge offers, rather than 54. I did not imply that they all get Oxbridge offers - obviously they don’t from 6th Form Colleges. Peter Symonds was a hugely successful grammar school, which has clearly been more than able to cope with the (long term) challenges. Nevertheless all state provision is not equal and it is wrong and biased to state that ‘Rosie’ is less deserving of an Oxbridge place than students from these privileged state schools/ colleges.

Trylinescore · 31/01/2024 22:27

Most people on the HE threads have heard of Symonds even if they don't know where it is. I was simply pointing out that it is far from highly selective. It stopped being a grammar school in 1974 so hardly relevant. We don't have grammar schools in Hants as it's one size fits all. This is the admissions policy:

Achievement of the required entry criteria to pursue a Level 3 or Level 2 programme of study. For Level 3 this is five GCSEs at grade 4 or above (or equivalent), including Maths and English. For Level 2 it is two GCSEs at grade 4 or above. Some courses have additional specific entry requirements.

Charlemagne38 · 01/02/2024 09:44

@Trylinescore I doubt whether people in the North or Midlands will know of PSC….